Second and First Class Requirements

[STEVE BROOKS]

I voted yes. Let the scouts "work the system" and also let them earn any merit badge that they are ready to undertake.

[Chief J]

I do not have a problem with Scouts working on merit badges before being First Class. I see the merit badge program as an exploration of interests. (i.e., you may be interested in Astronomy, or you may be interested in Medicine). while the First Class Program is specifically aimed at Scoutcraft and skills (Build a fire, plan and cook a meal safely, setup a campsite safely, etc)

As a result I think letting the Scouts explore their interests while working on Scoutcraft skills is fine. What I don't think is great is when a Troop says the Scout did all of the cooking requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class on one camping trip. Maybe, but how much did they learn and will be able to apply in the future on their own?

Chief J

[jr56]

I feel it is a good idea to let the boys work on lower rank requirements at the same time, as well as merit badges if they so desire. It allows the boy to take advantage of programming opportunities as they become available.

[PPC_NYLT]

I voted dislike, however i am mixed in my opinion.

I cannot stand it when 1 or 2 camping trips into a scouting career, which is typically a a month or two, a scout is a first class scout. As a first class scout, one is technically prepared to be a leader in the troop. Now there are some exceptions, but as an 11 year old scout, I wasnt ready to be a leader in the troop. Even at 17 there are many scouts who arent ready to be leaders in the troop. Also I do not like it when scouts get Eagle in the minimum time frame of 1 year and so many months (what ever it actually is is irrelevant). In that time, most scouts don't and can't understand what it means to be an Eagle Scout. Thats why I disagree.

I do agree, however, that scouts should be able to work on multiple ranks at one time, excluding the camping requirements. For example, if a scout earns the First Aid MB at summer camp his first year as a tenderfoot, as well as the Swimming MB, he should be able to demonstrate proficiency of these to the SM or somebody appointed by the SM to sign off on the req at the same time.

[Garyp2]

An interesting discussion. Being a 'retired' Scoutmaster there are pluses and minuses of both. But I believe that after a young man has achieved tenderfoot .... Let them work on both. I see nothing to lose. Granted, there is knowledge that is gained that is built on previous activities. But if is done right you can still build on that knowledge by doing both things.

What really 'turns the fan' for though .... is kids that go through the ranks and than can't recite the Scout oath and Scout law at Board of Reviews I required that at every Scoutmaster conferance. If they couldn't .... come see me next week. We said it at the opening of every meeting. I don't know if that is a problem other places ... but I have ran into recently when I have sat in on Board of Reviews. Really frustrating for me ... very basic stuff.

Gary Passow
'Retired' Scoutmaster
Troop 225
Roseburg, OR

[WeeWillie]

Dislike

The first BOR I sat on I asked what requirement was the
Hardest and why?
Most fun an why?

None of the Scouts knew what the requirements were for the rank they were being boarded for and couldn't answer the questions.

Last weekend was the District Camporee. The theme was Pioneering. The competition requirements were outlined two month earlier. I ran the 6 Knot Relay (Square Knot, Bowline, Sheet Bend, 1 Half Hitch, Clove Hitch and Sheepshank.) I had 1 Eagle Scout (and AOL) unable to tie a square knot, and another Eagle unable to tie a 2 Half Hitch. Both had a sash full of merit badges. I've seen similar results at Summer Camps, Camp Games.

FYFC, concurrent rank advancement and no prerequisites are the primary culprits since they allow hyper-achieving parents and leaders to develop advancement programs. Too many troops are too focused on rank advancement to the exclusion of actually learning anything.

[WeeWillie]

Goofed. 2 Half Hitch

[mmorrisbsa]

I've been advancement chair for three years, and have found that because the requirements generally build on each other, it is immaterial whether they can work on the ranks at the same time or not. Further, some of the requirements are, to some degree, requirements of opportunity. For example, does it matter if a Scout is Tenderfoot or Second Class to have the citizenship discussion with a community leader? Or does it matter when he takes the swim tests? I think not.

If your Troop Guides and Instructors understand the advancement process, they're working with the New Scouts along the TF-2-1 progression anyway. (They are the ones doing this, right?) TF is primarily about becoming a good patrol member and learning some very basic skills. 2nd Class builds on those skills, and 1st Class on those skills.

Bottom line, I don't see any issue here if you're following the program.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

FYFC, concurrent rank advancement and no prerequisites are the primary culprits since they allow hyper-achieving parents and leaders to develop advancement programs. Too many troops are too focused on rank advancement to the exclusion of actually learning anything.

Best statement I've read in here in along time - I fully agree!

[mhjacobson]

From the responses posted, I can almost tell which posters were in the 'old' scouting advancement program vs the "new" current one.

If one were to look up the the old scout thru first class requirments and compaire them with those of the current requirements, one would find that there is a subtile difference between the two. The current rank requirements has more to do with the gradual development development of basic scouting skills than the old program. This fits into the new scouting advancement philosophy which is:
1) move scouts to first class in one year so that scouts can fully participate in the character development, skill development, and motivational aspects of the progrsm;
2) decrease the number of scouts who leave scouting in the 6th thru 12 month due to lack of motivation and recognition; and
3) place scouts in the position that they can fully participate in the program by the end of the first year of membership.

This is the reason why the program now recommends that every troop have a "new scout patrol" for those scouts who are new to the troop and who are not fist class. The idea is that they get intensive 'skill development' opportunities to assist them in the development of 'first class' level skills. A scout should be able, if he fully participates in the new scout patrol, to develop the appropriate skills for advancement to first class in the fire year following joining the troop.

BSA has actually developed a "First Class in One Year" checksheet that clusters the skills in such a manner to assist the leader of the new scout patrol in presenting the skills so that skills can go across multiple ranks and make sense. The mid level of each skill (for each rank) repeat the use the skills learned for the lower rank, etc. Thus as a scout progresses, he reinforces and strengthens the skills that he learned for the prior rank.

Note that this philosophy continues into the MB program. See how related first aid skills are repeated into most MB requirements where the MB has some related health and injury risks. Also note how the aquatics badges have requirements that retest some of the swimming skills of first class (an aquatics MB counselor MUST be able to certify that the person coming for the MB has his first class swim skills prior to testing, for example, his sailing or canoeing skills -- this might take the form of actually seeing the scout swim the 100 yards, or in the case of camp, seeing the swimmer buddy tag). As a MB counselor, I always ensure that the pre-requisite skills (usually the first one or two requirements) are completed prior to moving on to the MB specific skills.

Thus the program does both: moves the scouts in an organized way through the rank of first class; and reinforces and retests prior skills.

[jhawk]

I like the idea of working on tenderfoot, 2nd class, and 1st class at the same time. It only makes sense given that so many skills overlap or continue through the ranks. Rank requirements and merit badge requirements are easy or hard depending on what each individual scout brings to them and how much interest and ability is there. Let's give the boys every opportunity to find as much in scouting as possible to enjoy! We want them to be active and advance, don''t we? Let's not put artificial limits on what they are ready and willing to tackle. What looks impossible to a scout today might look quite doable in 3 or 4 months. If a scout isn't having fun, he won't be around long.... The scout should decide what rank requirements to work on and what merit badges to take. Obviously, they need to earn tenderfoot, 2nd, and 1st in order since they are ascending ranks, but how they choose to do that should be up to the scout and what opportuniity he has to complete them. Personally, I think a scout should be allowed to be active in scouting and never earn any rank if that's what he wants to do. I'm not sure why he chose to, but I know a boy who refused to earn even scout rank and only wanted to camp and canoe with his troop to age 18.... Whatever! he was happy and is a very productive citizen today at age 22. He still has the values of scouting! Let's remember why we are really here.