PaintBall

[JazerNorth]

... I don't see what is wrong with a leader telling the boys the troop cannot participate in paint ball, but if they want to go play on their own, to go ahead. It isn't cheating the rules in any manner, nor is it telling the boys how to go around rules. The troop will not support paint ball is what needs to be told to the boys. ...

As a leader to tell a scout that he can not do an activity as a scout but on his own is OK is hypocritical. Would you also tell the scout that on his own he can point a gun at someone, sell and use fireworks, explore an abandoned mine, etc

You can't compare those events as they are different. Pointing a gun at someone is illegal, selling and using fireworks depending on the state is illegal, and exploring an abandoned mine can be illegal and just plain stupid, where as playing paint ball is neither illegal nor stupid. Basically you are trying to compare a non life threatening event with a life threatening event.

We both agree that a troop should not support the paint ball event. That is not argued. We do agree that we give suggestions to the boys on how they can still play paint ball. This is not hypocritical. It is simply helping the boys understand they have different avenues to reach a goal (good or bad) and if they think outside of the box (or scouting for this matter) they can find a solution.

Would I attend? No. Would I suggest the parents to attend? Yes. Would I suggest the ASM and other leaders not to attend? Yes. If a boy does get hurt (see example above) and he says that he attended with the troop (see above) the investigation would find that he really wasn't attending with the troop. The BSA wouldn't be held liable for the event, as everyone was told the troop would not support the event.

What I don't understand is why you think it is so wrong to let them know other avenues? Limiting the boys thinking to only scouting does not help the scout develop. If all CEO's were taught to only think like they are taught in school, we would be in a lot of trouble. Thank goodness they have the ability to think of other avenues to achieve a goal.

[616kayak]

I must have a different version of G2SS... BUT I found what you were talking about... direct quote:

"The activity commonly referred to as "War Game" - in which individuals
shoot paint or dye at one another - is an unauthorized activity."
.

you should pick up a new g2ss. The name war game or anything like that hasn't been used since the 80's maybe early 90's.

I wouldn't suggest ignoring the subject. Encourage them to play at an insured field. There are precautions taken there that are often overlooked at other places.

[joat]

The "War Game" wording was used up through the 2002 revision of the G2SS. The 2003 revison #34416D changed the wording to what it is now.

[Mrw]

For what it is worth, football is treated the same way as paintball - not acceptable at scouts for safety reasons. No one tells the boys they can't play away from scouts.

[ASM-142]

... Pointing a gun at someone is illegal, selling and using fireworks depending on the state is illegal, and exploring an abandoned mine can be illegal and just plain stupid, where as playing paint ball is neither illegal nor stupid. ...

I am not sure if pointing a gun at someone is illegal in all states - in fact in some cases it is legal depending upon the ammunition - in either case in my opinion this is plain stupid (by the way paint is ammunition).

Selling and using fireworks is legal in some states but in my opinion is plain stupid. There is no reason what a minor should be involved in this activity.

Exploring an abandoned mine may not be illegal but also in my opinion is plain stupid.

Following this logic if something is not illegal or plain stupid, in your opinion, then it is OK for you to encourage the scouts to do this activities outside of scouts even if they are against the G2SS.

We are not teaching adults here but kids. The teaching of future CEOs happen in college when these individuals are adults.

[ASM-142]

I can see it now, the police are at the Emergency Room getting a report on the broken ankle suffered when a paintballer jumped over a fallen log and landed "funny", all innocent but a report still needs to be filled out.

Officer: Who brought you here son?
Injured Lad: Mr Hill
Officer: Is Mr Hill any relation to you?
Injured Lad: No
Officer: How do you know this Mr Hill?
Injured Lad: He is my Scoutmaster
Officer: So this was a Boy Scout activity?
Inured Lad: Oh no, it wasnt a Troop event, Mr Hill made sure we knew
that when we left the church parking lot
Officer: Who were you with?
Injured Lad: Oh we must have had 20 guys out there
Officer: How do you know these guys?
Injured Lad: Well, they are all in the Boy Scout Troop with me
Officer: So this was a Boy Scout event?
Injured Lad: Heck no, it was announced at the Scout meeting that when
we were told the date and time to meet this wasnt a troop
event
Officer: How did you get 20 guys to the paintball field?
Injured Lad: Some of the dads of the kids drove us
Officer: Have you ever seen these men before?
Injured Lad: Sure, they are all assistant scoutmaster's in the Troop
Officer: So this was a Troop event
Injured Lad: Heck no

So, how long should I go on?

In this example if a parent brought this to court the scouts would lose.

[JazerNorth]

An example of a conversation with a scout:

Scout: We want to play paint ball.
Leader: The troop can not support a paint ball activity.
Scout: Why not?
Leader: The BSA does not approve any troop or scout activity to play paint ball.
Scout: But we want to play, can't we go if we have our parents permission?
Leader: Nope, scouting is not the place for paint ball. If you want to play, you will have to do it on your own time.
Scout: Can I invite other scouts to go?
Leader: I don't care, it would be like inviting friends to your house to play Xbox or sleep over.
Scout: Would you be able to come?
Leader: No, I don't have much time, nor do I want to play paint ball.
Scout: Is it really against scout rules to play paint ball, or is it that you just don't want to go?
Leader: It is against the rules. Is there anytime I have said no because I didn't want to do it? You and your SPL lead this group.
Scout: What if the SPL said we could go do paint ball?
Leader: The BSA would still say no to paint ball as a troop.
Scout: OK, We'll do it as friends.
Leader: You cannot do it as a troop, or patrol activity. It sounds like you could have fun.
Scout: What are we supposed to be doing?
Leader: Working on your knots.

Can be as simple as that!

[wagionvigil]

I am the Climbing Director in a local Council. I also operate a Climbing program at a Local Recreational area. You would not believe the Scoutmasters that lie for the scouts. WE have a age 13 at our Camp and age 12 at the other area. The leaders change birthdates to make the boys eligible. Now we are requiring the Charter Print out with check ins. We are also requiring First Aid merit Badge and the Reading of the MB book. None of us are First Aid MB Counselors and the only true measure of the requirement is the First Aid MB. Now why has this all been necessary? Scoutmasters that do not want to follow BSA rules and policies. I have gone nose to nose with several SM that even tried to bring Webelos into a Climbing MB Program( never to early to start) was the quote.
What are these fine leaders teaching the scouts?
I realize there are no age requirements for the MB But Experience has taught a well trained staff that Most ,not all 10 1/2 and 11 year old scouts do not have the mental or physical ability to belay properly and safely.
Would you want to put your life in the hands of a 10 1/2 year old scout? I think Not. What does this have to do with Paintball? A lot as to breaking rules and not following rules. In this Law Suit Happy world you can never be too careful.

[ASM-142]

Leader: Nope, scouting is not the place for paint ball. If you want to play, you will have to do it on your own time.

Why would you even add "If you want to play, you will have to do it own your own time." It would be best just to state "Nope, scouting is not the place for paint ball."

[JazerNorth]

Leader: Nope, scouting is not the place for paint ball. If you want to play, you will have to do it on your own time.

Why would you even add "If you want to play, you will have to do it own your own time." It would be best just to state "Nope, scouting is not the place for paint ball."

Plain and simply because there are other alternatives than scouting. If the scout would have asked about football, which is against G2SS, I would say the exact same thing. "Leader: Nope, scouting is not the place for football. If you want to play, you will have to do it on your own time." When this is mentioned it doesn't seem so bad. When paint ball is mentioned in the exact same way, THEN WATCH OUT - the BSA could get sued. Don't even begin to say that you wouldn't suggest to a scout to find another way to play football, because you probably do it all the time. When a scout talks about football, you start talking about college, the NFL, and High School. These are alternatives, that in your above opinion, shouldn't even be talked about at scouts. So, if you do it for football, there should be no problem doing it for paint ball.

JazerNorth

[ASM-142]

While representing the scouts, which includes being at scout meetings I have never told a scout that they can pursue activities that are against the G2SS this includes football.

If you want to go beyond that it is not allowed you should tell them to check with their parents and then let them make that decision.

[evmori]

While representing the scouts, which includes being at scout meetings I have never told a scout that they can pursue activities that are against the G2SS this includes football.

If you want to go beyond that it is not allowed you should tell them to check with their parents and then let them make that decision.

Ya need to be careful with the football reference. It reads

·Varsity football teams and interscholastic or club football competition and activities are unauthorized activities.

under Unauthorized and Restricted Activities.

This doesn't eliminate pick up games of touch or flag football.

Not all football is banned.

[pipestone1991]

paintball=absolutly not........why? BSA policy my friend

[WeeWillie]

BSA's policy against paint balling is based on the policies of the World Organization of the Scouting Movement's (WOSM) which ban military training. The Hitler Youth is probably the best (or worst) example of a youth group being used for military purpose. The USSR Young Pioneers was another. Today cuuntries such as Cuba include military training in their youth programs. Terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbolla also have youth groups.

BSA and WOSM do not want Scouting to be associated with these activities. Do you?

[FrankJ]

Should we work to ban ROTC in the public schools as well?

Paintball is banned is scouting. I have no problem with that. Comparing playing paintball to hitler youth or hamas is a bit of a stretch.

[evmori]

BSA's policy against paint balling is based on the policies of the World Organization of the Scouting Movement's (WOSM) which ban military training. The Hitler Youth is probably the best (or worst) example of a youth group being used for military purpose. The USSR Young Pioneers was another. Today cuuntries such as Cuba include military training in their youth programs. Terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbolla also have youth groups.

BSA and WOSM do not want Scouting to be associated with these activities. Do you?

WOW! That's one heck of a connection! And I'll bet if ya turn the power on the light won't work! The wiring is faulty in that connection!

[WeeWillie]

Ed

Three Jihadists were convicted of running a terrorrist training camp in VA. Among their training methods was paint ball. Not as far fetched as you claim

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/06/27/terror.arrests/

[hops_scout]

WeeWillie

Yes, and the killer in Kansas last year was a Cub Scout leader. So what if one person happens to play paintball and be a terrorist. Or anything else.

Paintball is not allowed by BSA policy. Plain and simple.

[cballman]

this topic is starting to get hot, so lets keep it calm or it will be locked.

[evmori]

Like I said, the wiring in the connection is faulty!

Terrorists use guns! Should the BSA ban the shooting merit badges?