GRRRRRRRER.....sometime's I....BAH!

[pipestone1991]

Okay so I have missed the last two campouts because of being on the speech&debate team. The 1st because I was at a tourney, the 2nd was because I have a tourney next weekend and didn't want to make my mom do my paperroute too many times this month. My SM is apparently not too happy about my absence. When he found out I wasn't running for SPL, he wasn't too thrilled either. The only canidates are both his grandsons. After talking to him and setting up my SM conference for life (which is tomorrow!) he told me that my chaplian's aide position was too easy and the troop wouldn't count it for Eagle so I either had to wait another six months for Eagle or get a respected postion in the troop. I reasoned with him and I will become an ASPL next year for six months and promised to run in June (although I'll be pretty busy in July-September with high school soccer....I'll tell him about that when the time comes).


The conversation made me a little mad. He was like "so speech & debate is more important that scouts? and I was like "until the season's over". If he asks me that again I'm going to reply "yes" matter-of-factly and see how he fares with that. He just kept on going on and on and I could tell he didn't want medoing anything other than scouts.

......I got ticked.



......but I got my Life SM conference tomorrow and hopefully my BOR in two weeks!

[evmori]

If you have completed your POR as Chaplin Aide & your SM has signed off on it, he has already OK'd it to count toward your Eagle. He can't change his mind. If he does, appeal.

Ed Mori
Troop 1
1 Peter 4:10

[ASM-142]

Additionally, if you meet with him you satisfied the requirement for a Scout Master Conference. This is not a pass or fail requirement.

[ASM-142]

... he told me that my chaplian's aide position was too easy ...

It is not up to the SM to accept the chaplain's aide position for rank advancement. The requirment includes this as a POR. As long as you satisfied the requirements then the requirement has been meet.

[FrankJ]

The decision of whats more important is up to you & not the SM. If he has not defined the position requirements for Chaplain's Aide in advance, then it would be difficult to say you have not met them.

On the other hand being aurgumentive, even if you think the SM deserves it, is not in keeping with the scout law. If the SM stands his ground & you apeal, what you say will be held against you.

[WeeWillie]

Pipestone

"Be Active In Your Troop And Patrol" is the 1st Requirement for Star, Life and Eagle. You will miss two camping trips in a row to attend Speech and Debate competitions.

You were offered the position of SPL, instead you were looking for a position of lesser responsibility. As you advance in Scouting more should be expected of you, not less.

During your Scoutmaster's Conference you negotiated for a position as ASPL without telling him of your soccer plans.

How many speech and debate competitions are you allowed to miss before you are cut from the team. Ditto for soccer? Why should your SM expect less from you than your coaches? And you want to be an Eagle Scout?

If you want your SM to respect your decisions, then you have to accept the consequences.

[deweylure]

If the scout felt he could not carry out the office of SPL I applaud him for taking himself out of the race. This scout knows what the commitment is and what time he has .


In regards to the Troop position the SM is wrong..... I suggest speaking with your Eagle Mentor.

Its about time the rules are followed. As an ASM I see alot of leaders making rules up on the fly.

Deweylure

[Billiken]

....... I see alot of leaders making rules up on the fly.

Nothing makes me madder.

[wagionvigil]

Councils need to start shutting down the leadership in Troops that do not follow the rules.
No tour permits
making up rules
fudging Birth dates to make the boys eligible to participate in restricted activities.
etc etc.

[gwd-scouter]

Fudging birth dates? I've never heard of this. Are there really adult leaders lying about a boy's age just so the scout could attend a restricted activity. Those same folks would probably adjust a scout's rank so he could be elected to OA.

Very sad.

[Mrw]

I commend you for declining the SPL position if you didn't think you could do it well with your other activities.

I hope you have used the debate team as a basis for a public speaking merit badge. That is a way to point out there is some benefit to you. In addition, if debate team is career oriented for you - like maybe you are thinking of being a lawyer or going into politics - tell that to the SM when he gives you a bad time about it.

I do agree with him that I would like to see you try out more of the different positions and responsibilities as we grow from facing new challenges, but it cannot be required.

[Lynda J]

I applaud you for accepting the fact that you could not do justice to the SPL position at this time. I also congratulate you on your advancement on a Debate Team. It is hard work. I know from first hand experience. If I were your SM I would appreciate your honesty instead of browbeating you. We have two boys that have missed most of the meetings this year because of band and football. They have stayed in contact with t he troop and worked on advancement on their own.

One thing that to many SM's forget is that though Debate, Band, Football may not be actually graded subjects they do have an affect on how grades are applied. You miss to many games you are out and then your sports grade drops. There is no reason what so ever that boys can't do both school activities and Scouts. But as adults we have to work with them.

I hate it when adults expect boys to put one activity over another.
Know of one SM that complained because one boy was going to a family picnic instead of going to a campout.

In our troop our SM puts the priorties right.
1) FAMILY
2) SCHOOL
3) SCOUTS.
And that is the way it should be.

Talk to your SM. Be honest with him use your skills from debate. But above all be honest.
If you SM turns down Chapline Aid as your POR talk to the Committee Chair or your District Advancement Chairman. And it should not be held against you by the Advancement Committee. I can't say what your SM's reaction might be.

[scoutaholic]

... One thing that to many SM's forget is that though Debate, Band, Football may not be actually graded subjects they do have an affect on how grades are applied. You miss to many games you are out and then your sports grade drops. There is no reason what so ever that boys can't do both school activities and Scouts. But as adults we have to work with them. ...

In the world I know, Debate is a class in school where you do get a grade. There are times that they may meet before/after school to prepare for a competition, and they go to the competitions. Participation in the competition is part of the grade in the class. Same thing with band, choir, drama, dance, etc, etc.
I've never heard of a sports grade.? Where does that show up on the report card? What class grade is contingent on participation in school sports programs?

[jr56]

You are to be commended for knowing your own limitations. You have already fulfilled your POR for rank. The Scoutmaster has no right to determine that it's not good enough. Appeal it in writing to the troop advancement chairman, then committe chairman, then district advancement chairman, then council advancement chairman, then regional, then national. This is the appeal chain you can follow, and you have a right to. Best wishes to you.

[PPC_NYLT]

pipestone--i agree with almost everybody else who posted here. You should be commmended for realizing that you cant handle the responsibility of SPL while trying to do debate team and all your other activities. You need to sit down and talk to your SM about your situation. As a scout, you are supposed to be trustworthy, etc... so you should talk it through with him so you both understand each other. He needs to understand that you enjoy scouting (which you hopefully do), but you want to make yourself a "well-rounded" individual and that your keeping yourself involved in activities outside of scouting. If he thinks that you should soley dedicate yourself to scouting and forget about your other activities that he doesn't have the Scout Oath at heart. By doing your activities you are keeping yourself "...physically strong [and] mentally awake." In addition, your SM has NO right to say that the Chaplain Aide POR is too easy and that the troop will not count it. As long as you "serve actively" you cannot be denied that requirenment. In my opinion, "serve actively" would be fulfilling the duties of the chaplain aide as listed at http://www.scouting.org/relationships/05-216/index.html. *IMHO Chaplain Aide seems to be one of the toughest positions out there, if you fulfill every duty that is.* As brother wagion is always so kind to remind us, leaders just can't make up rules. So if you do what the requirements say you can't go wrong. Good luck with this and remember we're always here =)

[Bfitz]

Get an adult on your side who knows the rules of advancement and is willing to help you. Its tough for a kid to go it alone against his Scoutmaster.

I had a similar problem not too long ago with the Troop's committee interjecting what they believe the rules of advancement are. I was told by several committee members (note none of them were Eagles) that my son was advancing too quickly and that he's too young to be an Eagler Scout. Why should he be penalized because his dad showed him how to get to Eagle?? I and a friend of mine were 15 and another friend was 14 when we made Eagle in the late '70's. Because I was an Eagle I quickly pointed out to the committee that there is no age requirement on being an Eagle other than he can't be over 18 (he's 14 and will be 15 when he qualifies for his BOR in the spring).

I had the Committee Adv. Chair try to tell me at the Committee meeting that it is a rule. When I asked him to show me where this rule was he made a vague reference to it being somewhere. I quicky pointed out that it wasn't in the Scout Handbook. Needless to say he received his Life rank that he earned and is riding his time until his Eagle BOR in March.

Many in Scouting try to re-define the requirements as they see fit. If you see them doing it- call them on it. Theres no reason why one Scout should have to work twice as hard to get Eagle.

[riverwalk]

True, people can't add things to official requirements. That's the point in the other thread too (100 hr thingy). So we all have to ensure the program runs the way intended, helping advancement along the way. It's also true that some do advance more quickly than ideal, but Scouting is that way....up to the individual mostly.

But it isn't useful either, to point out the lack of Eagles on the Committee. Scouters that are Eagles aren't always a big help in the Program. Likewise most Scouters are not Eagles, and many are useful. Thank goodness it isn't required to be Eagle to be a Scouter. The Program wouldn't have enough adults to operate at current levels.

[deweylure]

In our troop a few leaders have a similar mentality that a boy at 13 should not be an Eagle scout. well like it or not it will happen. We have two very intelligent boys who are ages 12 and 11 . the 11 year old joined early as a result of earning his Arrow of Light. He progressed thre his ranks of scout-1st class in a year . the 12 year old did it in a year also.
they also have made choices about school and scouts and have done well at both.


Deweylure

[pipestone1991]

Pipestone

"Be Active In Your Troop And Patrol" is the 1st Requirement for Star, Life and Eagle. You will miss two camping trips in a row to attend Speech and Debate competitions.

You were offered the position of SPL, instead you were looking for a position of lesser responsibility. As you advance in Scouting more should be expected of you, not less.

During your Scoutmaster's Conference you negotiated for a position as ASPL without telling him of your soccer plans.

How many speech and debate competitions are you allowed to miss before you are cut from the team. Ditto for soccer? Why should your SM expect less from you than your coaches? And you want to be an Eagle Scout?

If you want your SM to respect your decisions, then you have to accept the consequences.

Let me clear this up, I took chaplien's aide in Jan. '06 as a 1st class. I missed 2 out of the last 3 campouts because I had Speech&Debate Tourney's....I talked w/ a my SM and I should become an ASPL next year.

[WVBeaver05]

Let me give my view on this. No leader can "decide" that a POR listed in the requirements isn't adequate. Just can't happen. If you performed in that position for the required time you met the requirement. End of story.

Now, what a leader can / should do is ensure that you do PERFORM. If I find a Scout not performing as expected (and I tell each one what is expected as soon as they are elected or appointed), I take them aside and discuss the needs. If they persist in not fullfilling the position requirements I am obligated to remove them from the position. That is the only way to do it in compliance with the rules.

In my opinion, missing 2 of 3 campouts would not be grounds to remove you from a position if you were doing the other things required. If you were my Scout, missing 2 of 3 campouts would not affect the "...be active..." or "...Scout spirit..." sections, again assuming that there were not other issues that I don't know about.

As you may surmise, I have a somewhat strong opinion on leaders who want to make their own rules and/or change the rules.

YiS