Community Service Hours "Double Dip"?

[fritz1255]

My son is one of several boys who are working on either Star or Life as well as the Citizenship in the Community Merit Badge. The Merit Badge requires eight hours of community service, while Star or Life each require six. I know there are other requirements that are "double dipped" - every boy who earns the Swimming Merit Badge automatically passes Second and First Class swimming requirements, for example. Similar situation with First Aid. My feeling is that double dipping on the community service hours violates the spirit of the requirements that each boy should do a certain amount, but I will go along with whatever the "policy" states on this one. Does anybody know whether the hours can be done simultaneously?

[PaulSWolf]

As long as the SM and MBC approve of the work for the respective requirements, the hours can be counted for both. But it is strictly the SM's call for the rank requirement, and the MBC's decision for the merit badge.

[jr56]

Agreed, that is the decision of the SM and the MBC.

[WeeWillie]

I know there are other requirements that are "double dipped" - every boy who earns the Swimming Merit Badge automatically passes Second and First Class swimming requirements, for example.

2nd & 1st Class Swimming is embedded in Swimming MB (Req 3) so it is not double dipping. At BSA Summer Camp a Scout must complete the BSA Swimming Test (1st Class Req 9b) usually as part of Registration. If a Scout doesn't pass the test, he is not allowed to continue with Req 4-10 until he does.

He is YOUR son, not the SM's or MBC's. If YOU feel it is double dipping, then YOU make the decision not to do it. Double dipping and hyper-legalities are not what Scouting is about.

[evmori]

I agree completely with Paul.

[fritz1255]

Decision at the Committee Meeting last night was that the service hours can be counted for both, which is OK by me, ad certainly OK with my son. Just wanted to make sure that we weren't violating some sacred rule.

As for hyper-legalities not being part of Scouting, check out this thread: http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1119 I never expected anyone to advise me to notarize permission slips.

[OldGreyBear]

I hope this doesnt enter in the realm of hyper legality, but respectfully it isnt a decision that can be made by the Troop Committee. As has been commented here several times, this is the decision of the Scoutmaster and the meritbadge counselor. The Committee decision is nice, but its not their call

[ASM-142]

I hope this doesnt enter in the realm of hyper legality, but respectfully it isnt a decision that can be made by the Troop Committee. As has been commented here several times, this is the decision of the Scoutmaster and the meritbadge counselor. The Committee decision is nice, but its not their call

I fully agree that this decision should be made by the SM and the MBC. I would go further in stating that the decision by the SM should be made independently from the decision of the MBC and vice versa.

[joat]

A decision from the Scoutmaster is regarding Scout ranks; a merit badge counselor has nothing to do with Scout ranks. A decision from a merit badge counselor is regarding a merit badge; the SM has nothing to do with merit badges.

The troop committee is there to support the Scoutmaster, not to issue rulings.

[fritz1255]

Both Scoutmaster and MBC were at the Committee Meeting, so rest assured that all is well.

[ASM-142]

Both Scoutmaster and MBC were at the Committee Meeting, so rest assured that all is well.

Did they agree with the decision or were they told that this is the decision?

[fritz1255]

My recollection is that they both agreed. We don't use Roberts Rules of Order at our Committee Meetings, so I pretty much interpret lack of disagreement as agreement (I write the minutes).

[WeeWillie]

Let me guess. The MBC also has a son that will benefit from double dipping!

[cballman]

also a question from a person in a larger troop. why isnt there enough service time with enough hours that you dont have to double dip for anything? If your troop is an active one and larger than a few boys then there should be plenty of service projects going on at any given time to get service time. if our troop is not camping then it seems that at least one weekend a month is dedicated to a service project of some kind.

[WeeWillie]

Right now we have fire fighters collecting unwrapped toys, churches collecting unwrapped toys, the Salvation Army collecting unwrapped toys, the USMC collecting unwrapped toys.... There should be plenty of opportunities for community service this Holiday Season.

Community Service is one of the hallmarks of Scouting. It is one of the values we are suposed to be instilling. It is not something we do to get a checkmark on for an advancement requirement with as little effort as possible.

As Scouters we set the example for community service by our participation in Scouting. Think of the 100s of hours we put in as community service. What good is setting the example, when we don't expect our Scouts to follow it.

[Lynda J]

I was wondering the same thing. We never fall short on service hours. One boy has logged over 40 hrs since school started. He works through a program at his church. He works their food bank each month and then his family visits shut-in's almost every Sunday. If a boy is active in his church and community there should be no need to double dip. on service hours. Once a month we do a cleanup at our CHO property. It gives each boy there about 1.5-2 hrs. Go by and pick up trash at the soccer field. Stop by a nursing home and read. One thing my brother loved when he was in the nursing home before his death there was a group of Scouts that came by once a month and just visited. They would spend about 2 hrs. When my brother passed away I got a card from the troop. Since my brother was an Eagle Scout he truly enjoyed their visits.
Another benifit is that boys learn that just because someone is in a nursing home doesn't mean they are old. George was 51 when he died and had been in there for 5 years. There are about 12 residents that are under 50. You wouldn't believe how many people in nursing homes never have a single visitor. George's roommate had family that lives within an hours drive. In the 4 years they shared a room they never visited once. It was their grandfather.
I can understand the double coverage on Swimming and Rank. But giving back to your community isn't that hard.
Like my very wise Gran use to say "Your community is like a tree. You are either a leaf that feeds and nutures is or mistletoe that sucks it dry. Be sure you are always a leaf" Community service is teaching our boys to be that leaf.

[mhjacobson]

And scouts have school, the troop, and homework, as well as possible ahtletic, etc. activities. There is no guidline issued by BSA that does not allow double dipping of activities for advancement and merit badges. And to say so might be a violation of the 'nothing less, nothing more' policy of BSA.

I agree tha it is relatively easy to do community service. And the merit badges even tell what kind of community service must be accomplished for the badge.

What should be more of an issue is the individual scout. The SM and the BOR have to make the determination of whether or not the scout has lived up to the spirit of the requirement.

[John F.]

Double dipping should be allowed for the right reason. Volunteering time for your community or church. The only time it shouldn't be allowed is when a scout is ordered by a judge to do community service. And yes, sometimes a scout does get into trouble with the law.

[WeeWillie]

John

There is never a right reason to double dip. If National intended for CITC MB to double dip with Star/Life they would have made CITC MB 2 hours. They didn't. Swimming has 2nd & 1st Class specifically written into the merit badge requirement. If a Scout can't pass the 2nd & 1st Class requirement, they don't move on.

The reason why we have double, triple, quadruple (and what ever 5 and 6 are) dipping is to allow Scouts to advance with as little time and effort as possible. It is most often found in troops running merit badge mills.

We are suposed to be teaching our Scouts lifetime values. Do we really want to be teaching our Scouts that community service is something to avoid whenever possible. How many hours are you putting into Scouting in six months? Why shouldn't you be expecting your Scouts to put in 14?

[scoutaholic]

...There is never a right reason to double dip. If National intended for CITC MB to double dip with Star/Life they would have made CITC MB 2 hours. They didn't. ...

Your logic here also works the other way. If National intended that the hours for CITC could not be counted for Star/Life, they would have specified so. Just like in Hiking MB, it specifically says that the hikes for requirement 5 and 6 cannot count for other MBs but can count for Second Class (2a) and First Class (3).

We are suposed to be teaching our Scouts lifetime values. Do we really want to be teaching our Scouts that community service is something to avoid whenever possible. How many hours are you putting into Scouting in six months? Why shouldn't you be expecting your Scouts to put in 14?

7a. Choose a charitable organization outside of Scouting that interests you and brings people in your community together to work for the good of the community.
7c. With your counselor's and your parent's approval, contact the organization and find out what your people can do to help. While working on this merit badge, volunteer at least eight hours of your time for the organization. ...

The CITC requirement is very specific ... choose an organization that fits this criteria, contact them, ask what you can do, do at least eight hours.
This is not your every day service project. This is a scout taking the initiative to plan/organize, and then spending at least 8 hours of their time. This sounds more like an Eagle project than hours for Star/Life. If the boy does the paperwork to get it pre-approved, there is no reason it couldn't be used as the Eagle project. If the boy goes through the effort to do the CITC service as it is written in the requirement, I'm not going to tell him that he can't advance until his does more. Recognize the boy for what he has done - don't make the service a drudgery.
There are plenty of service opportunities, and most active scouts are going to have done plenty of hours besides the specific ones for this requirement. If the only hours they did are the 8 for this requirement, then they have still done 8 hours, which is more than the hours required for Star/Life.