ASPL problems

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ASPL problems

Postby hacimsaalk » Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:49 pm

during troop elections, i was elected as the new SPL. so then it was up to me to pick the ASPL. well i made a crappy (excuse the language) choice , and really PO'd one of the scouts who actually was qualified :oops: :oops: . the scout i chose shaped up for the first couple of monthes (after pulling a stunt that almost got him booted from the troop), and now has gone back down hill. now, all he does is follow me around during the meeting. he socializes with all the other older scouts (instead of herding them back to their jobs), he hasnt helped one bit with our "big trip", and he is the main culprit that no advancements are made on campouts (along with the dishes not being done, etc.). now i really regret my choice. the scout that i should (and wish i would have) chosen now basically does the job of my ASPL. i would like to remowve the current ASPL and replace him with the other scout. Is that a choice that i can make? should i take it before the troop or committee? i really need your help on this one :?
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Re: ASPL problems

Postby scoutaholic » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:49 am

hacimsaalk wrote:during troop elections, i was elected as the new SPL. so then it was up to me to pick the ASPL. well i made a crappy (excuse the language) choice , and really PO'd one of the scouts who actually was qualified :oops: :oops: . the scout i chose shaped up for the first couple of monthes (after pulling a stunt that almost got him booted from the troop), and now has gone back down hill. now, all he does is follow me around during the meeting. he socializes with all the other older scouts (instead of herding them back to their jobs), he hasnt helped one bit with our "big trip", and he is the main culprit that no advancements are made on campouts (along with the dishes not being done, etc.). now i really regret my choice. the scout that i should (and wish i would have) chosen now basically does the job of my ASPL. i would like to remowve the current ASPL and replace him with the other scout. Is that a choice that i can make? should i take it before the troop or committee? i really need your help on this one :?


I can't tell from your post what you have already tried with your current ASPL. Before replacing him, make sure he is aware of the expectations and that he needs to improve. Some leadership training may be in order. Maybe that could be done as part of your Patrol Leaders Council meetings. Talk with your SM about the problem, and then talk with the boy (maybe with the SM present also).

Maybe your troop could use 2 ASPLs for a while. Talk with your SM about that possibility.

The ASPL position is appointed by the SPL with approval from the SM. I would take your concerns to the SM, and talk with him about your options. Replacing the ASPL is one option, but there are probably several others.
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Postby 616kayak » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:24 am

I generaly dont have this problem in scouts but, in jrotc we Counsel cadets and fill out a Developmental Counseling Form if they dont live up to our expectations. After 3 they loose their position. This way they know exactly what it takes to loose it. Since no one wants to loose a job they worked so hard to earn everyone does their job and we dont usualy have a problem.
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ASPL problems

Postby jhawk » Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:53 pm

Congratulations. You are now the proud recipient of one of the best lessons scouting has to offer. How to be a leader and what being a leader entails. Lesson #1-It's easy to be a leader when you followers can function alone.... It's a whole different experience when you have to provide the leadership. It's not always a pretty thing. Lesson #2-pick the best assistants to help you do the job the first time around. hardest lesson of all-the buck still stops with you as SPL. You are still responsible for making sure things get done. You aren't going to be able to delegate to this ASPL. Take responsibility for your troop and exercise better judgement the next time around. Live with it and learn from it.
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Re: ASPL problems

Postby hacimsaalk » Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:31 pm

jhawk wrote:Congratulations. You are now the proud recipient of one of the best lessons scouting has to offer. How to be a leader and what being a leader entails. Lesson #1-It's easy to be a leader when you followers can function alone.... It's a whole different experience when you have to provide the leadership. It's not always a pretty thing. Lesson #2-pick the best assistants to help you do the job the first time around. hardest lesson of all-the buck still stops with you as SPL. You are still responsible for making sure things get done. You aren't going to be able to delegate to this ASPL. Take responsibility for your troop and exercise better judgement the next time around. Live with it and learn from it.


so what you are telling me is that i need to do my job and step uo to the plate-AKA im not doing what im suppossed to.

i ralize that i am responsible for things getting done. i cannot be everywhere all the time and get every thing done. the other scouts dont do jack as far as claning up, etc. HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU TELL ME THAT I CANNOT DELEGATE RESPONSIBILITES TO MY ASPL???? his responsibility is to be MY ASSISTANT. he is suppossed to have my back and help me whereever i may need.

i think that maybe you need to spend some more time in scouts, and actually see how things are run. from what you post, you have NO CLUE. Before you slam me for not doing my job, and REMIND me that i made a bad choice, why dont you get some experience under your belt and see what it is really like. :evil: :x :x :x

until then, stop insulting me and my troop!!!
Micah

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Postby RWSmith » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:46 pm

Micah,

If you're gonna get on a BBS and ask for advice, then you have to be willing to take what comes out of the fountain... just because it tastes bad, doesn't mean it's not medicine. Although jhawk's post was critical, it's what I'd call constructive criticism... Plus, he wasn't hammering you, personally. He was making an observation that could be applied to you, me, or any of the older Scouts/adults on this board. A lot of people on this board were in your very shoes 20, 30, even 40 years ago. I suggest you cool off, a bit. We're all here to help each other out. Take what everybody has suggested, thus far, combine it, mull it around, think it through. Use what you can get out of it and tuck the rest away for another day.

All Users... If you have a problem with somebody on this board, you need to e-mail one of the Counselors... this is not the place for throwing lawn darts.
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Re: ASPL problems

Postby 616kayak » Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:58 pm

Tell him what it takes to keep his job. Have the SM present as a witness. If he doesnt do his job replace him. Not everyone in your troop will agree with you removing him but be ready to stand by your decision.
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Postby WVBeaver05 » Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:24 am

There have been a lot of good observations on this subject. Let me summarize them (and, of course, add my thoughts).

* Throughout life we learn from experiences - we learn somewhat from good experiences, but it seems that we learn more/better from bad ones.

* The situation that you describe is not unique to Scouting, but I have seen it numerous times in Scouting. That is to say - someone not doing their job.

* Setting expectations is IMPORTANT (in Scouting, in school, in the work place, in a family, etc.). In Scouting for positions of responsibility, the expectations should be set by the Scoutmaster very soon after the election / appointment. There are materials available to help with this so they can be very clear.

* In addition to setting the expectations we do a grave disservice to the Scouts if we don't provide the training needed to fulfill the positions. This is the basis for Junior Leader Training. The first component is the expectation setting, but it must be followed by training and support on HOW to do the job. For the ASPL, both the SM and the SPL must take the responsibility for providing this training -- AND SUPPORT.

* We hold elections every 6 months, but only do the day long Troop Level JLT once a year (usually). This means that there needs to be one on one training if there are Scouts in PORs that haven't had the full day training.

* Many Troops don't do the full training even annually. I personnally feel that this is a huge mistake. We know that we have to train the Scouts on things like tying knots, First Aid, cooking, etc. but for some reason we feel like they will just know or "absorb" leadership skills. I have seen the same thing in the work place. The Scouts deserve to have the training to introduce them to the skills of leadership just like all the other skills that we teach.

* Communications is important! That means that when you (and/or the SM) sees that the ASPL isn't doing his job / meeting the expectations set for him, that he has to be told / reminded. Nearly everyone will, at some point, deviate from what is expected. If no one mentions it, they are much more likely to continue to deviate further and further. Not because they are BAD, but because they haven't been told / reminded. The communications should start very informally and gently as soon as something is noticed. It is sometimes a hard thing to do even then.

* But it doesn't get any easier. If the performance is not corrected, then the leadership must "do it's job, too" and that means moving to more formal correction and trying to bring the performance back up to an acceptable level. The bad news is that this is usually painful and hard for a leader to do. The good news is that in most cases when it is clear both what is expected and that the person will be held accountable that most people respond well and correct the problems. In many cases this is the catalyst for not only bringing people back to expectations but to exceeding them.

* And, even harder, if the performance does not come back to expectations within a reasonable time, then the leadership has the extremely hard job of removing the person from the position. It is hard to do in Scouting just as it is in other areas of life, but it has to be done. Even with Troops that have elections on a 6 month interval, just waiting until the next election isn't exhibiting the leadership that we are trying to teach / instill, it is simply a cop out.

* That leaves the hardest job. If you have to remove someone from a position, then you have to deal with the fallout. And that means taking flack from other Scouts and adults for one thing (the SM should be taking most of it, but no doubt the SPL will get some) and knowing that you did everything you could and the decsion was the right one you can stand by it. (While internally admitting that the failure of a subordinate was partly your fault and learning from that as well.) But the hardest part of this is to continue to work witht he Scout that had to be removed from the position. Even if done well and even if he recognizes that he wasn't doing what he had been clearly told he needed to do, there will still be anger and resentment from him. You have to be willing to deal with that rather than push him aside (and thus, usually, push him out of Scouting). Finding a way to interact with the Scout removed from a position may be the hardest thing you do, but you HAVE to try and do it.

* No one said it would be easy, but there is learning in everything. So, step up and learn and practice the leadership skills. (And then hope that you never have to do it in a workplace.)

WOW!! As I look back, this post is WAY longer than I was expecting it to be, but I'll leave it since I stand by the observations. And, I can tell you from personal experience that these things are not easy.

One last point - if you don't think you are getting the leadership training that you need, talk to your SM and ask for more for yourself and your other Junior Leaders. And, (people who know me in Scouting know what is coming here) see if you can attend your Council level JLT Course (now officially called National Youth Leadership Training or NYLT). It is usually a week long leadership training conference usually taugh in a camp setting. You will be taught leadership skills in detail in a Scouting environment, you will work hard, and you will have FUN. If your Council isn't having one, or you can't attend, check with adjacent Councils, but don't miss the opportunity. And Scoutmasters, promote this to you Youth Leaders and help them make sure they can go. Not only will the individuals who go benefit, but when they return to the Troop as better leaders your Troops will benefit, too.

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Postby hacimsaalk » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:59 am

jhawk- srry bout my last post. bad day got the best of me. we all are entitled to our own opinions, and you were just giving yours. which is allrihgt. i was in the wrong on that one :oops: :oops:

micah
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Difficult choices

Postby Troop173Scoutmaster » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:13 am

Our troop has been undergoing "reorganization" for over a year now. 3 months ago, the boys selected a new SPL. His selection for Troop Guide (ours assists new scouts the entire first year) performed an act of "destruction of personal property" of one of his charges.

The SPL and ASPL met, discussed the situation and came to me for advise. I encouraged them to act with "firm authority, mixed with compassion and understanding" instead of a knee-jerk reaction.

In my mind, I was thinking "tell him his mistake, warn him, and move on", letting him know the consequenses for future offenses. They actually decided to REMOVE him from his position and BAN him from holding a leadership role during the remainder of this 6-month term, and not being considered during the next term!

Although I found this a bit harsh, the scout accepted his "punishment", willingly apologized to the victim, and requested of me (SM) a course of action to begin rebuilding his credibility with his peers!

His "punishment" was delivered to him during a troop meeting. The SPL and ASPL simply pulled him aside and delivered their "judgement." Later in the meeting when we broke into Patrols, the new patrol ask where their guide was? The SPL stated with firm, yet humbled authority, "I will be assiting you until a new guide is in place next week. Let's work on our knots..."

Good luck with your decision!
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Postby wagionvigil » Mon Jan 15, 2007 10:18 am

Most adults will find that the punishment dished out my a youths peers is much more severe that an adult would give in the same situation.This is one reaon I always let the troop decide punishment and left the adults out of the picture.
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Postby Mrw » Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:35 am

wagionvigil wrote:Most adults will find that the punishment dished out my a youths peers is much more severe that an adult would give in the same situation.This is one reaon I always let the troop decide punishment and left the adults out of the picture.



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Postby hacimsaalk » Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:30 pm

well, i wish i could say things were resolved or going better, but no changes thus far. i really think im gonna sit down with the ASPL and SPL from last yr, and see if they have any advice. im also gonna talk with the SM and see if i could implament 2 ASPL's as of next week. if he keeps failing, i am going to put the 2nd ASPL into place and remove the current one from his position.

thanks for all the advice thus far.
Micah

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Postby mhjacobson » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:51 pm

We all forget that there are mechanisms in place for dealing with problems. If you want assistance from the SM, you can request a SM conference for the purpose. I am sure that the wise sage advice of the SM during a conference with the ASPL and you will assist you.
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