Early Crossovers

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

A new problem is arising in our troop. We have one (1) home school family whose son has completed Arrow of Light in his first Webelos year (this is their 3rd son through). He turns 11 in early April and they wish him to cross over. The child is VERY PREPARED to do so.

We have other parents (same Pack) who now believe THEIR sons can "finish AoL" and be ready to cross over at our April Bridging Ceremony, however, the boys don't turn 11 until July, or even later. Even IF they completed AoL, they are simply not mature enough to cross.

Here's the problem: In addition to the above, we are the only Troop in our community. Currently we have 24 scouts and 17 WEBELOS II already prepared to cross over in April (officially, some are already meeting w/ us as they've completed AoL)

What do I tell these parents about their 10 year olds? The requirements seem to suggest they CAN cross, but with 17 already coming, we simply cannot handle the influx.

"Start another troop" is NOT an option here. We do well to provide leadership in our community for the troop and pack that exist, even though they are really good programs!

[ASM-142]

If these boys have completed the requirements for AOL then they have satisfied the joining requirements for a troop that is usually the last step. There are other joing requirements but if these are satisfied you can not turn down a boy because of maturity. You should at this time be recruting these boys parents to help out in the troop.

[lifescoutforlife]

We have 2 boys coming to our troop in Feb that are 10 and in 5th grade, 1 turns 11 in Apr the other in May. They both are Web II's. They may be young but have completed what they have to for Boy Scouts.

[bluenote]

We have a 10 year old boy who is planning on doing this next month. He is from a small pack, with only two Webelos II scouts and he is the only Webelos I. However, he has completed his Arrow of Light requirements and the national guidelines now state that 10 years old with AoL does fulfill the joining requirements.

[Mrw]

even if the boys are in 4th grade, if they are turning 11 over the summer, they are the same age cohort as the WebII's you are already expecting. Many of our boys turn 11 in the few months after earning the AOL in Cubs. Frankly, any kid who has earned the AOL a year "early" should be an asset. I would expect that he has a bit of motivation to be involved and learn.

If the boy is only a Web I because he repeated a grade, that is no reason to hold him back in scouts too. We have had a couple boys who repeated first grade, but advanced in Cubs along with the boys they started with there. That crossed them into scouts in 4th grade, but they did just fine. The early academic readiness issue and the later scouting readiness don't really seem to be related.

[hacimsaalk]

i would take them anyhow. as long as they have gotten the AOL reqs done, you really cant turn them away. i would suggest gettting the older scouts really involved and working on maturing them.

just my $0.02

[jr56]

If they have completed their AOL, they are eligible to join. Sounds like a great opportunity to recruit some additonal adult troop help. Let the parents know that you will need some additional leadership to take on these additional boys. Let them know exactly what help you need and make sure they step forward to fill the vacancies.

[wagionvigil]

This was posted early last year and I thought this might be a good place to put it up again. Many troops are seeing issues with the 5 year Cub Scout program and see it as hurting Boy SCouts in the long run. The opinions posted are from scouters with alot of years in the program
Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:42 am Post subject:

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I was at an OA Banquet yesterday. Several Friends and I were discussing this Thread. What we came up with is something that is not hard to put into place.
1. Every part of the program from tiger on run on a school year.
2.Webelos would not cross over to a troop until August or September going into their 5th grade year. There Scout experience woiuld begin in September with the start of scool and they would not attend long term camp until just before their grade 6 year.
3. Boys Scouts ends at grade 8 going into Grade 9( don't panic yet)
4 Senior SCouts Begins at Grade 9 and ends at the end of the scouts 18th birthday year ( they get to finish the school year) Eagle can only be finished as a Senior Scout.
Note: These are two separte programs with separate leaders this would put some change in the program as the Boys will only be in any one program for 3 or 4 years.

5. Venturing is still separate and C0 ed- Grade 9- age 21
6. You cannot earn Eagle or be elected to the OA as a Venture or Sea Scout.


In our Conversation of the Old Farts we decided we did not attend camp until just before 7th grade back then so that would be between 6th and 7th.wWE also discussed that we were on a school year. None of the cross over in February junk. Funny thing about the Conversation was we all had A couple things in common. WE were all Eagles. All Vigil Honor Members and have been registered forever. We have all been Webelos Leaders,Cubmasters and Scoutmasters. I might be wrong BUT there must have been something going right back then.

[jr56]

Certainly gives you something to mentally chew on for awhile.

[deweylure]

i say welcome them with open arms. My experience with one scout who completed AoL is these boys may be extremely motivated. Also ask the parents to sign up as an Asm

[hacimsaalk]

i say welcome them with open arms. My experience with one scout who completed AoL is these boys may be extremely motivated. Also ask the parents to sign up as an Asm

i think it is a gret way to get parents involved. the kids are at a stage where parents arent ready to let them venture out own their own yet, so they are mor willing to tag along. if you show them what an awesome program your troop runs, they will be more likely to stick with you till their son is eagle and has moved off to college.

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

Great comments! Thank you all. My biggest problem with the rush on early crossings is motivated NOT by self-motivated, dynamic young scouts, but by parents who don't want their precious ones "left behind" because the 1 self motivated child excelled. They believe it must be simple to complete AoL and move on, since one did it, they can all do it.

Most of these boys have not (to date) completed the Webelos badge. With the recognition ceremony upcoming in the Pack, the parents are scrambling to push through, often (in my opinion) slighty the true meaning of the requirements for the sake of advancement!

As a Cub leader, I had a policy of not "questioning" the word of a parent about their scout. I figured if they wanted to lie about the advancement, that was their lesson and legacy to their sons. My problem here is that I will be getting boys who HAVE AoL, but (in my very strong opinion) have not EARNED AoL.

Each in their own ways, these are great boys! I just hate to see parents push advancement and recognition in such a hollow manner.

I appreciate the input from each of you. I'll continue to moniter the opinions! Thanks!

[Mrw]

I am a little confused here. You say they are earning their AOL but don't have their Webelos badge yet? I haven't done Cubs for a while since my "baby" is 17, but I thought you NEEDED to earn the Webelos badge first as a part of the AOL.

[WeeWillie]

I encourage WB-IIs to stay in Cubs until Pinewood Derby which is held in March. It gives the crossovers one last hurah and still get a camping trip or two before Summer Camp and get to know the troop.

Your concern about pushy parents and early crossovers is valid. I had that situation two years ago. The kid wasn't ready but Dad insisted. There isn't much you can do about it, but watch out for the parent over-supervising their son and doing their work for them.

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

Message wrote: I am a little confused here. You say they are earning their AOL but don't have their Webelos badge yet? I haven't done Cubs for a while since my "baby" is 17, but I thought you NEEDED to earn the Webelos badge first as a part of the AOL.

REPLY: Your confusion is justified. The Pack encourages them to earn their Webelos badge BY February of year 1. Many are still finishing those requirements. They will then be awarded at the Feb. Blue & Gold of that pack. The cubmaster has been in position for almost 20 years and has an AMAZING two year Web. program!!! (should be model for all scouting!)

She then handles presentation of AoL in March, and together we conducted the Crossover Ceremony in April.

[ASM-142]

When I was involved in cub scouts a life time ago, I did see a number of times where are boys were requirements were signed off at the same time and advanced at the same time to "keep" them together. Boys were even advanced if they did not complete requirements so the den would advance together.

I do not agree with this practice and when I became a cub leader I stopped it in my den but I know other den's that it did take place.

[Mrw]

As a den leader I did have a couple boys that ran a little behind and did not complete their badges at the same time as the rest of the boys in my den. I helped them along, but never signed for something they didn't do.

I did have one kid who had to be "tricked" into completing things. He was always so proud of himself for getting something signed, but never was motivated to work on things.

I also had one kid who joined Webelos at the beginning of his fifth grade years and he did do some extra to earn both the Webelos badge and the AOL by the crossover. I gave him opportunities, but he had to take advantage of them to get things done.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I did have one kid who had to be "tricked" into completing things. He was always so proud of himself for getting something signed, but never was motivated to work on things.

Sorry to jump in here negatively but this is the kind of thing I have a real problem with. This is exactly the type of agruement in many other posts about Eagles, age, fairness in advancement, etc.

I just have a real problem with scouts not taking some initiative for their own program, but getting the credit for the work - this doesn't reflect well for the other scouts that are truely working the program.

You don't mention the age of this scout but I assuming it's a Webelos or a younger boy scout. If this is the case, they are way too old to be "tricked".

[Mrw]

He was an extreme ADHD kid and really turned off especially quickly when it was "required." That we had our den meetings in the evening when the meds were wearing off didn't help. But if he thought it was just for fun, then he was into it. And he did have successes in Cubs that he wasn't having in school, so he liked that too.

He eventually started to see that required could be fun too. He was only with us for a year as it really wasn't the right place for him to be.

You are right though, if the boy isn't into the program because he wants to be there, he really should stay home.

[jr56]

Yes, it can be a problem. I have had to deal with parents in the past who want to push their kid throught with all the others so they don't get "left behind". Then they carry this mentality into boy scouts where advancement is supposed to be a self motivated individual thing.