Early Crossovers

[Nuts4Scouts]

In Cub Scouts, up until 4th grade, the boys are supposed to be doing their rank requirements at home with parents responsible for signing them off. At these younger ages, unless something is obviously wrong, yes, the den leader is supposed to take the parents word for what the boys have accomplished at home.

That is the way BSA has written the program.

In Cub Scouts, earning a rank award has nothing to do with the ability to move up to the next level. The Cub Scout program does follow the school year (and has done so for a good number of years). Cub Scouts move up to the next level automatically as of June 1st. It does not matter if they have earned their rank award or not. A Wolf Cub Scout who does not earn his Wolf rank will still become a Bear Cub Scout on June 1st, at the end of his 2nd grade year.

The Webelos program is very different. Parents have been taken out of the approval loop & are no longer responsible for signing off on completed work. If the Webelos den leader is doing their job correctly, there is really no way a parent can "push" their son along or "lie" about requirements. Unless, of course, the parent IS the den leader.

Yes, a 4th grader CAN earn the AOL. However, he STILL has to meet the time requirements. A 4th grader HAS to BE a Webelos from his 10th birthday until 6 months after his 10th birthday, in order to earn the AOL. That means that any boy who turns 10 after October of his 4th grade year can not cross over with his older buddies in April because he will not be eligible to earn the AOL until May or later.

I also think that your Troop needs to re-think their policy of having 5th grade Webelos who are "unofficial" Boy Scouts. Earning the AOL does not automatically make them Boy Scouts. There are still things they can accomplish with the Pack. Also, if they have finished their AOL then they should receive it NOW. Not be forced to wait 4 months! It does not matter if it is more convienient for the Pack or if that is when they have the fancy ceremony planned - it is just wrong. Do another ceremony NOW. BSA policy is Instant Recognition, not go join a Troop and come back 4 months later to receive your award.

[Lynda J]

I had a couple of my boys that if it had been left up to parents to help them with advancement they wouldn't have done anything. One boy his mother didn't even come to the cross over program when we moved into the troop. To busy with the boyfriend and their drug parties. We did most of our requirements as a Den. As far as tricking boys into getting things done. I don't really have a problem with this as long as after they have finished the requirement you discuss what had to be done to get them to do it.
How many times have we, as adults, told someone that is always late that they needed to be somewhere 30 minutes early so they would be there on time.

[Mrw]

We always had boys in Cubs that would never advance if the requirements weren't done with the den.

One of our other den leaders actually had a parent tell her that she had signed him up for scouts so she didn't have to do things with him! And that was when she had been asked to do the religious requirement that cannot really be done with the den!

My den meetings always started with a requirement or two and then the extra stuff. We were always told at training that the requirements were to be done at home and the extras and fun stuff at den meetings, but I don't personally know any den leaders that actually have experienced this!

[jr56]

That has sadly been my experience too. There are a few boys in the Dens that wouldn't advance at all if it were left up to the parents.

[Nuts4Scouts]

Both Personal Achievement AND Family Understanding are Purposes of Cub Scouting. Just as both Advancement AND Family Involvement are Methods of achieving the Purposes.

Family involvement is essential to Cub Scouts. If you take the family out of it you are significantly changing BSA's Cub Scout program.

Doing some of the rank requirements in den meetings is fine. Doing all of them is doing the boys in your den a real disservice.

It takes some work to get the families involved. A good Tiger program helps start the process. Good communication with the families helps too. I talk to parents, send out newsletters letting families know what they have to do, talk to parents again, send out more newsletters, etc.

Yes, there is usually 1 or 2 boys whose parents just do not want to work with them at home. But, these are 1 or 2 boys out of a den of 6-8 boys. The rest of the boys are working with their families, strengthening family understanding & having fun with their families. So do you take all of that away from 4-7 boys for 1 or 2. I don't think so.

The 1 or 2 get the recognition, & personal achievement for the parts they have accomplished. They might not earn their rank award, but that's ok. That is a part of Character Development & learning to Do Your Best.

Most families will eventually step up to the plate. I have very seldom had a boy not earn his rank award. Unfortunately, I have had some. It's a shame, but that is life, & you can only do your best for your WHOLE den.

[Mrw]

It was my experience that the few boys who don't have a family that will help them on the rank requirements are the ones who most need the achievement of earning the rank awards because they don't get the sense of accomplishment elsewhere.

It was also my experience that the Tiger Cub program of the time my boys were little enough for it really sucked! My older son was bitterly disappointed to find out that he wanted a cool Khaki uniform like the CM had on at school night and all he got was an iron-on T-shirt transfer. And then the Tiger parents were left to figure out the program and implement it pretty much on their own. Amazing really that we stayed in the program at all.

There were enough options in the Cub rank requirements that the boys who did do things at home did not have to repeat everything at den meetings. They did earn more arrow points for doing extra.

This isn't really the place for the discussion of whether the Cub program should still be structure in a way that expects families to do most of the requirements at home. But I personally think they could do a lot to make the whole thing a bit more workable in a world with single parents and two career families.

[riverwalk]

Aside from decisions like maturity or when they Crossover, I'm interested in the infrastructure working (influx of newbies). If one is getting several new Scouters WITH this influx, then the ratios should be fine. Sure there are some logistical things that one thinks about, like equipment, but that's what a Troop works on all the time anyway.

[mhjacobson]

Sorry Nuts-4-Scouts, but you forgot part of the sentence in the Webelow Handbook regarding Arrow of Light R=equirements:

The requirements are

Be active in your Webelos Den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becomming ten years old), and earn the Webelos Badge.

.

This means that a scout could possibly be just 10 years of age and be a boy scout (i.e., my son just became 11 in December and is in the 6th grade and has been a member of his troop for 1 year).[/quote]

[Nuts4Scouts]

Nope, I did not forget anything.

Your son was in 5th grade & 10 years old when he earned his AOL. That means he completed the part of the AOL requirements that states -

Be active in your Webelos Den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade

The original poster was concerned with 4th grade families who wanted their boys to earn AOL & cross to Boy Scouts in April of their 4th grade year.

This would mean that the "6 months since completing the fourth grade" section of the AOL requirement would not apply and it would have to be "six months since becoming 10 years old".

He also stated that the boys in question do not turn 11 until July or later. That means that the boys who turned 10 in July thru Oct would meet the "6 months since becoming 10 years old" requirement in time to earn the AOL & cross to Boy Scouts with the other boys in April. The boys who turned 10 in Nov or later would not be able to cross in April because they would not meet the "6 months since becoming 10 years old" requirement to earn AOL.

If the boys meet the AOL requirements, & the Boy Scout joining requirements, by the Pack's April ceremony, there is really no way to stop them from joining a Boy Scout Troop. The original poster might refuse to accept them in his Troop, but they can join a Troop in another community or start their own Troop in their community (regardless of the original posters feelings that a new Troop would not work).

[ASM-142]

Interesting Scenario
12/31/1996 (Born)
12/31/1997 (age = 1)
12/31/1998 (age = 2)
12/31/1999 (age = 3)
12/31/2000 (age = 4)

9/1/2001 Starts Kindergarten

12/31/2001 (age = 5)

6/20/2002 Completes Kindergarten
9/1/2002 Starts 1st grade
Tigers

12/31/2002 (age = 6)

6/20/2003 Completes 1st grade
9/1/2003 Starts 2nd grade
Wolf

12/31/2003 (age = 7)

6/20/2004 Completes 2nd grade
9/1/2004 Starts 3rd grade
Bear

12/31/2004 (age = 8 )

6/20/2005 Completes 3rd grade
9/1/2005 Starts 4th grade
WeBeLoS I

12/31/2005 (age = 9)

6/20/2006 Completes 4th grade
9/1/2006 Starts 5th
WeBeLoS II
12/20/2006 (satisfied AOL 6 month requirement since completing 4th grade)
12/20/2006 Earned AOL

12/31/2006 (age = 10)

6/20/2007 Completes 5th grade
9/1/2007 Starts 6th grade

12/31/2007 (age = 11)


This boy can join a troop on 12/21/2006 since he earned his AOL and it has been 6 months since he graduated 4th grade. Current age is 9 years 11 months.

This boy can join a troop on 6/20/2007 since he has completed the 5th grade. Current age is 10 years 6 months.

This boy can join a troop 12/31/2007 since he is 11 years old.

[Mrw]

Interesting.

In our neck of the woods pretty much everyone requires the child to be 5 before Sept 30 to start Kindergarten. Might even be state law in Ohio, with extra readiness testing to possibly allow October birthdays to start at age four.

Our school district has gone to requiring the child reach age 5 by August 30 to start Kindergarten.

This would add one year to each of your final numbers and bring the child in line with normal cross-over ages.

[Nuts4Scouts]

I do not know of any school system that will allow a 4 year old to enter Kindergarten.

Maybe a homeschooled child.

[PaulSWolf]

The current youth application form says:

Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade and is at least 10 years old or is age 11 or has earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but has not reached age 18.

So this

This boy can join a troop on 12/21/2006 since he earned his AOL and it has been 6 months since he graduated 4th grade. Current age is 9 years 11 months.

should read:

This boy can join a troop on 1/1/2007 since he earned his AOL and is at least 10 years old. Current age is 10 years.

[ASM-142]

I do not know of any school system that will allow a 4 year old to enter Kindergarten.

Maybe a homeschooled child.

When I was a kid long long ago, NYC schools used 12/31 as the cut off point.

[ASM-142]

The current youth application form says:

Your son can be a Scout if he has completed the fifth grade and is at least 10 years old or is age 11 or has earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but has not reached age 18.

So this

This boy can join a troop on 12/21/2006 since he earned his AOL and it has been 6 months since he graduated 4th grade. Current age is 9 years 11 months.

should read:

This boy can join a troop on 1/1/2007 since he earned his AOL and is at least 10 years old. Current age is 10 years.

Thanks Paul. I had outdated requirements which just stated AOL.

Based on the scenario I presented the boy should be able to join on 12/31/2006 which is his birthday when he turns 10.

[mhjacobson]

Possibly, but it is rare for a school district to allow a student to enter Kg before he is 5 years of age. Some have a complicatred formula that they use for Kg entrance. The problem usually is where the scout is double promoted somewhere between 1st grade and 5th.

In Chicago, the grade placement is determined by the age as of September 1. If not 5, can not enter Kg. In one of the neighboring suburbs, the age is determined by the age atf December 1st of the year of entering Kg. (5 by Dec 1, 2005, enters Kg Sept, 2005).

No hard and fast rules here. The real reason why BSA has this provision is to allow scouts to advance in the program along with the other boys in their age group or grade. If they enter Tiger Cubs together, they should be able to enter Scouts together when they are old enough. Was felt that it would not be fair to hold a youth back due to variances in their ages.

Seems to work. If there is a strong cub program, the cubs tend to remain in the program and go to a troop together.

[WVBeaver05]

I do not know of any school system that will allow a 4 year old to enter Kindergarten.

Maybe a homeschooled child.

My 2nd Daughter entered Kindergarten at age 4. Our school system used a cut off of age on September 30. Her birthday was early October. Still took testing and psycological testing (2 different sessions). That was some years ago. The last time I took notice, they still did the testing for early admission, but charged the family.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

The age 5 requirement here is December 1st, so we actually have lots of kids that start of 4.

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

Here is the conclusion of the matter: After much discussion, encouragement, and some pressure, the parents who were so vocal about their sons crossing over early decided to let their boys enjoy another year in WEBELOS. They were informed about the joys of the WEBELOS program, and the fact that in our county we have a WEBELOS ONLY pack! I don't know of another one anywhere else, but it allows the boys to be more like Boy Scouts than Cubs. It's really a great situation.

Our troop was still blessed by the crossing over of 14 new scouts!

[deweylure]

A scout who earned AoL can move on to boyscouts. That is in the book.
Take the scouts do not turn them away as they may never join. Get the new parents to sign up ,get trained and help.

Deweylure