A not so worthy Eagle....

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Postby 616kayak » Sat Apr 21, 2007 9:10 am

The more teams you work on you will realize not everyone is willing to work as hard as you are. There are lots of people who are willing to do just what it takes to get by. I’m talking about the people who are there just to get their paycheck, grade, or rank. Its frustrating, I know, but just about the only thing you can do is slowly give the more responsibility and hope that they change their outlook. Other than that, be patient with him.
"Training is my business and business is always good"

Life scout / JASM
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Postby Hubert » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:38 am

OK, Im the JASM of my troop and a few parents have brought this up to me, and I turned to a place where I know I could get help. Thanks everyone!
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
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Postby gwd-scouter » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Hubert, I can't tell from your posts if you're trying to find some sympathic folks here or trying to find folks that will fortify your indignation over the injustice of working so hard at your Eagle project while another Scout doesn't seem to do anything toward his. In either case, I think there have been some interesting posts so far. And, yes, I've watched my share of Scouts that in my estimation didn't deserve the Eagle Rank bestowed upon them, but that in no way dimished the accomplishment of those that I thought did.

As to your question if anyone else has seen this kind of scenario before, of course we have. We all live in a world wherein there are folks that will go above and beyond and folks that will do the minimum to get by. A world where people lament "woe is me" and others that will take the challenges they face as a way to improve themselves. Put a bunch of people in a room together that have had hardships and downfalls and some will say they are victims while others will say, here's what I learned and what I did to overcome.

As a side note, we have a picture taken while my older son was working on his Eagle project. It is of him sitting on the end of our truck talking on a cell phone while in the background a bunch of guys are busy doing the physical labor involved in his project. Anyone seeing only that picture could assume that he was really not doing anything but goofing off. The reality is that he was calling one of the guys that had volunteered for that day and had not yet shown up, to find out if he was coming or not.

I wish you all the best with your Eagle project and your pursuit to Eagle Rank. Hopefully, years from now, you will look back on that accomplishment with pride and not give a second thought to those you feel are undeserving.
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Postby Hubert » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:54 pm

Thank you GWD-Scouter. I have been looking for a way to explain it to the parents who talk to me about this. I am unsure how to tell them, because I see the same thing. I think we have some awsome posts, all of which will help me explain things to them, in a nice way, without trashing the boy or making me look like a glory hog.
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
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Postby FrankJ » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:48 pm

Hurbert: If you are speaking of discussing a specific scout with his parents, unless they ask you, I would not. That is a conversation for the SM or CC.

I would also be careful discussing specific projects with other scout parents, except in positive terms. If you have issues, discuss them with a SM, CC or an ASM in private. It is up to the SM to provide guidance to the scout and the committee to review the process. Once you have brought an issue to their attention, it is their job to deal with it.


This all comes from the concept of praise in public & criticize in private.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
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Postby WeeWillie » Sun Apr 22, 2007 5:11 pm

Justin

The Scout in question did not create the situation, the troop leaders did by allowing it to ocurr in the first place. If there is widespread unhappiness over this situation then the troop's parents need to address the problem, not the JASM That may mean someone else stepping up and volunteering to be SM, ASM, or CC. That is how I became SM. I'm sure there are others on this forum who became leaders for similar reasons.
Mike Wilson
MBC, Cochise District, Catalina Council, Sierra Vista, AZ
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Postby Hubert » Sun Apr 22, 2007 7:44 pm

Ok, thanks guys. I have only said to the parents that I will think of the suitition and get back with them. They all feel that he is not "moving the troop forward". They came to me because his parents, think he is god. One is on the Committe, the other is an ASM. They both argue with me that my project is not enough, eventhough everyone else, disagrees. Well, thanks guys. I will do (and dont do) some of these. I am glad I joined this site, it has helped me in so many ways!
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
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Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby FrankJ » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:23 pm

Hubert: You left out the part about one parent being on the committee & the other an ASM. Looking through the lens of the Internet (foggy at best). You need to stay out of politics while you are working on your eagle project. Parents should not be bringing these issues to you to solve in any case. Direct the parents to the SM, CC, and the charter org. rep.

Stay focused on what is important and good luck with your eagle project.

If your project is already approved by council, it really doesn't matter what any body else thinks. Your SM & committee have already signed off on it and should not be continuing a decided issue.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
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Postby Hubert » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:48 pm

OK, thanks. Yes, my project has been approved, and is in full swing. It also has attracted media attention. Im kind of happy, then im not. But, your right, its not their choice, its mine. I like my project, Im impacting many many many lives, and maybe, saveing one in the process.

Yes, his parent is on the comm. the other is a ASM, however, they never really liked anything I have done. I have bashed heads with them many of times. No matter what I do, their kid has, "been there, done that, and did better" Everythings a compettion with them, if I do it, so does he, and its a race to him and his parents, to beat the older kid (me).

Is there a way to solve that? or is it just a ignore it and move on" because thats what I have been doing, it just gets tireing to hear "Look at (Insert his name) hes doing so well, why are you not doing that?" From his parents.
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
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Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby WeeWillie » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:34 pm

Justin

Get your parents involved. Anything you say or do will only get you in undeserved trouble.
Mike Wilson
MBC, Cochise District, Catalina Council, Sierra Vista, AZ
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Postby Hubert » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:47 pm

Well, I have talked to my parents. They agree, but, this family does not think their child does any wrong.

Thanks all!
Justin
Asst. Scoutmaster
Eagle Scout Class of 2008
13 Years in scouting.
Hubert
Eagle
 
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:10 pm
Location: Tall Pine Council

Postby ASM-142 » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:52 am

Justin - Do not worry about the other scout and his family. Concentrate on your project and scouting career. If someone comes to you about the other scout direct them to the SM. It is not your responsibility to respond
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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A not so worthy Eagle

Postby jhawk » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:03 am

Justin, just because this scout is a "really smart kid" does not mean he does not have special needs. Special needs is not synonymous with stupid. He can be very "smart," meaning that he has a high IQ, but still struggle with many elements in life. It doesn't mean he might not have learning disabilities or a form of autism or any number of special needs. You can be disabled in some ways and still be "very smart."
When my son was a baby, he was practically a genius. Seriously, he started speaking at 5 months of age, stood up unassisted at 7 months, was running all over by 8 1/2 months, was reading about 150 words by sight before he was 2, was doing addition and subtraction math problems. he wasn't "taught" any of this--he just started doing it. If you don't know much about child development, that might not mean much, but it is exceptional.
But then something changed. He stopped talking so much. He stopped interacting with people. He started spending all his time lining up his cars and blocks and Legos in lines all over the house and we couldn't move any of them without him freaking out. He made intricate patterns with them. By the time he was 3, he didn't speak to people or seem to understand what we were saying. His world focused on eating a few foods and drinking only water and playing the same way everyday, hearing the same story over and over and over. My genius baby had become an autistic toddler. He got some skills back over time through elementary school, but at 17 1/2 he still struggles academically and socially. Through cub scouts it took him 4 years to say "hi" back to his den leader instead of making a squeaking noise and diving under the nearest large piece of furniture. A lot of progress was made through intensive efforts at school and home and with doctors and therapists. My son didn't get stupid, he just lost his ability to communicate with the world around him. Now he is high-functioning as an autistic, but he still needs educational supports and help reading people's faces and understanding language at times. He was 14 until he knew that you could look at people's faces to see who they were! (He used to "recognize" people by looking at their clothes or shoes. Imagine memorizing the wardrobes of all the people you are supposed to know.) He is not "normal," but he does pretty well with supports. He isn't the genius he started out being, but he isn't stupid. He just can't express himself the way he used to. The boy who spoke so early has some speech problems now as well as language disabilities like dyslexia and problems with pragmatics. He reads, but he was in upper elementary school before he read as well as he did at 2.... He still doesn't drive and might not. Ever. His paperwork for eagle was in his mother's handwriting, not because it was done for him, but because he couldn't spell things correctly or form all the letters well and it's enough of a struggle to say what he needs to to communicate. But he knows lots of things. He picked a project that he has a special interest in and a lot of knowledge about and wanted badly to complete. He did what he needed to do because he has a small, supportive troop with boys who let him be who he is. At merit badge days, I will take notes for him because it takes all of his energy to listen and be in a room filled with sights and sounds and smells that are very distracting in addition to the pressure of learning new material. He does it because he loves it.
If you don't need extra supports to do well in scouting, then thank God that you don't. But have a deeper understanding that many scouts DO need help in some areas, and you don't always know who they are by looking. Scouting is an incredible help for many special needs kids who need structured activities with other kids. I often tell people that it was scouting that helped my son to develop as much as he has more than any other single thing in his life. He is very deserving of his rank. It took him another 2 1/2 years to become SPL, but he did a good job and that wasn't "given" to him either. He is a good scout and a good kid who looks pretty "normal" at first glance these days because he gets the support he needs.
We have a new scout in the troop with autism and his parents aren't sure if he can make Eagle. I'm not ready to decide that... I never thought my son could do it when he crossed over, either. I didn't think he'd make First Class. I was a little quick to judge apparently. This boy is not yet as far along as my son was in his development, but who knows what he can do.... I try to be a little more open-minded these days.

Maybe this scout whose worthiness is being questioned IS just sliding by, but maybe he is working his hardest. The scout himself is really the only one who can determine that. If he is a slacker, that's unfortunate, but that will usually come with it's own punishments in life over time. If he is doing his best, there is no problem. If I were you, Justin, I would focus on my own present and future.
Last edited by jhawk on Mon Apr 23, 2007 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby deweylure » Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:13 am

Cahalk this up to experience and a lesson learned. worry about your project and the help you are giving to others,

you will find many people in life who will do nothing but take the credit

Dewey
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Postby FrankJ » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:50 pm

My mother gives sage advice, often unasked and underappreciated at the time. At times like this I suspect she would say

"Do not get into a pissing contest with a skunk."

Since I do not know any one involved with this, please do think I am accusing any one of being the skunk.
Frank J.
Venturing Crew Adviser, Assistant Scout Master, Renegade Merit Badge Counselor
Owl-2 WB 92-49
Foothills District Atlanta Area Council
I never teach my pupils. I only attempt to provide the conditions in which they can learn.--Albert Einstein
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Postby optimist » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:28 pm

This subject has gone about as far as it needs to.
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