Star Rank Board of review For Disabled Scout, How Handled II

[w9lqi]

In the prior thread several contributors raised some really good questions about the "Conference Form" that I described .

What I will do here is: (1) describe the form, (2) Discuss how it is prepared and then used (3) describe some of the boys comments on the form and (4) discuss briefly the problems the disabled Scout had with the form.

1. The form (please note that I couldn't get access to the Star Form but first class and starv are fairly similar in content. Warren was allowed to bring the 1st class form home but not the Star form, so please bear with me as this form still illustrates the process)

Boy Scout Troop 464 (hand written date
Woodland Hills, California given to boy)

First Class Conference
Personal Growth Agreement
Date________________

NAME:______________________ AGE______ SCHOOL GRADE___
I have been a member of the BSA for ___ months, including ___Months
as a Second Class Scout
SCOUT SPIRIT:
I have shown Scout Spirit By_________________________________
_________________________________________________________
I will continue to show my Scout Spirit by_______________________
_________________________________________________________
CAMPING:
I have completed_____ nights of camping since joining Troop 464, Since
becoming a Second Class Scout I have been on the following campouts:
___________________________________________________________
I liked the _____________ trip best because_____________________
___________________________________________________________
Camping has taught me:______________________________________
SERVICE:
I ( ) do ( ) don't try to do a "Good Turn Daily: I have helped others by
__________________________________________________________
For my Star Scout Service Hours I propose to_____________________
__________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
PATROL
My Patrol is ( ) Great ( ) Good ( ) Fair ( ) Poor. My job in the Patrol is:
________________________I try to help the Patrol by_____________
__________________________________________________________
We meet ( ) regularly ( ) occasionally ( ) Seldom We ( ) do ( ) don't do
things to get ready for Troop meetings. We have a patrol ( ) song ( ) yell
( ) flag, ( ) meeting place and or ( ) storage area
I ( ) feel ( ) do not feel as if I am represented well at the patrol leaders
council because______________________________________________
I ( ) feel ( ) do not feel as if the other members of my patrol are well
represented at the patrol leaders council because__________________
__________________________________________________________
I will continue to help my patrol by______________________________


P.2
TROOP
I think Troop 464 is ( ) Great ( ) Good ( )Fair ( )Poor
The things I like most about the troop are_________________________
___________________________________________________________
The things I like the least about the Troop are_____________________
I hope to see the Troop________________________________________
I will help by________________________________________________
I would like to take a trip to ____________________________________
I think Scouting is_____________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
ADVANCEMENT
While earning my First Class I enjoyed the ____________requirement
the best because_____________________________________________
The _____________________requirement was most challenging
because____________________________________________________
I know that I have learned the basic scouting skills on my way to this First
Class rank. I will continue to try and practice and perfect these skills. I will
also try to teach these skills to the scouts of lower ranks even more thoroughly thean I learned them. For my Star rank I intend to complete the____________, ________________,_________________________,
and _________________merit badges. Circle the four required for Eagle
I have chosen these merit badges because _______________________
___________________________________________________________
LEADERSHIP
For my leadership requirement for Star Scout, I submit that I will serve
my Troop or Patrol in the following manner or position________________
The leadership skill I expect to use the most is______________________

I INTEND TO COMPLETE THE REQUIREMENTS FOR STAR SCOUT BY_____-
OTHER COMMENTS____________________________________________
____________________________________________________________
Respectfully submitted__________________________________________
( ) Accepted ( ) Not Accepted__________________________ Date______
Scout Master Troop 464
RECOMMENDATIONS___________________________________________
____________________________________________________________

The form is given to the boy by the advancement chair when he has completed all the rank steps but the last three (spirit, SM conf, BOR)
It now seems that up to 1st class, the boy may take the form home to work on it. Usually the advancement chair wants the boy sitting at the next table in the large meeting room. The boy hands it in, the AC checks it and nods or hands it back and tells him to fix it. Some times she tells him how but at least in my experience she lets the boy stew to figure out whats wrong. This can go on for several meetings until he figures it out. Indeed this happened to Warren on the 1st class form. He already had done all of the required MB's for Star but he just couldn't figure out what to say that on the form. He fussed and fussed over it while the Advancement Chair let him stew. Another ASM went over and said "what's wrong Warren" and at that point the Advancement Chair got religion, jumped up and swept in to help him only then.

The form is turned in and the scout never sees the form again. It is then used by the SM for the SM conference. SM sign off on form and hands it back to AC lady. She sticks it in a file and when the BOR is picked by her and convened, she hands it and a one page advancement record to the BOR committee. They read it discuss it, scratch their collective heads and are supposed to use it to ask the boy questions. They pass it around to one another in the BOR and each BOR member gets a shot at questioning the boy. Based on that process they gain informaiton, sometimes the BOR process lightens up, they put the form down and just chat with the boy but not always. Based on this process, the boy is excused and the decision is made, the boy is called back in and if he passes, they sign his book and he goes back to the open area and circle up for the big announcement at the end of the meeting night. This my experience, I have been chosen for a number of these BOR's.

Now some of the boys have told me they don't like the form because it feels like a test to them. Some really hate it, others do okay. I have seen some normal main stream boys sit there for several weekly meetings trying to fill out hte form and get all confused. Things like camping nights are hard for most of the boys.

In Warren's case, it took him five weeks of 15 minutes a night for the most part. I dolled up a 1st class form at home, he and I went over it and I helped him get some answers on to the form. He for the most part wrote the prompt in his own hand writing, but on page 2, yes I filled in some of the answers. Things went grudgingly okay with the Advancement Chair the 1st couple of nights but on the 3rd night she really had him under her thumb and strarted really scrutinizing the prompt form and then suddenly jumped up and said "Gimme that form right now, you can't use it, it's not you hand writing why it's your dad's, now gimme that". So Warren muddled thru but never had access to the form again. The advancement Chair drug her feet on getting the BOR arranged and it was several weeks later he got the review. The BOR used that on him and my first thread tells the tale of woe on Warren. Now, interestingly enough during the filling out process, Warren lamented that it was hard filling out the form and the money lady who sits at Advancement chair's table let Warren know that don't fret too much, why none of the boys put too much down on the form. She was one of the BOR members who then proceded to really grill Warren at the BOR. Now please recall I had filed an e-mail with the advancement chair in January begging her to let me help Warren. So the process of non-advancement for Warren was from early January 2007 until March 21, 2007 when he finally got the BOR. Then on or about April 11, 2007 he got the BOR collective undated rejection letter.

Now my question to the contributors, how do you see this fitting into the protocol of the National directives and rules. I hadn't thought about this until at least two astute contributors raised the question.

Second, I wonder if this second thread sheds some light on the problems I am grappling with inproprioty of the troop's system for Warren. Imagine how an autistic kid sees this. I know, for example that Warren sees all possibilities at once in a sort of Steven Hawking Quantum Physics way and so it is hard for him to chatagorize what a a word or two that would be easy for a normal "linear type mind". Open ended questions are very hard for him as they are for most autistic kids. That is why I helped him with the form in the first place. In writing this thread I begin to see my fault in this deal and that is I should have been very strong and agressive on demanding the accomodations from the get go, but I wasn't. As I think about it I'm working my way thru it all and learning from a bunch of mistakes along the way.

Thank you kind people for helping sort this one out.

Hutch on behalf of Warren

[cballman]

Robert after seeing this form I will stand by what I said in the other thread. if this keeps going either I would call the council or district people or a lawyer and I would try to find another troop because this form is adding to the req. and I would being the ASM of a troop then I would bring the troop down. If they treat all the kids this way then I would bring in outside help. what this form says to me that either the troop is to big or the committie people have never talked to any child so they dont know the kids.

[evmori]

Charlie the Bear is right on the money. This is adding to the requirements. The boys in the Troop are there to learn. It is the responsibility of the adults to guide & teach. This form is totally useless & has no place in Scouting. If it was me & I was sitting on a BOR, I would start asking the Scout questions about himself & how he feels he is doing in the Troop. Actual BOR stuff!

[wagionvigil]

AS I have said this form is against BSA Policy. This troop has major problems!

[ASM-142]

I agree in that this is against BSA policy. I would inform the SM, committee, and chartering organization that if they do not change this immediately that it will be brought to the attention of district, counsel, and national. Also, let them know that if does not change there is a good chance that 1) they will be removed as leaders; and 2) that the troops charter can get revoked.

[joat]

I have seen some normal main stream boys sit there for several weekly meetings trying to fill out hte form and get all confused.

The form idea is ridiculous. If a boy responds to all the written questions, what’s the purpose of even holding the BOR? The content in the form seems innocuous enough. These are all appropriate topics for board members to bring up as discussion topics at the BOR, keeping in mind that there are no right or wrong answers. But they are topics to be brought up at the board of review, not topics to be written up and submitted for advance “approval” . Forcing a boy to spend 5 meetings, or even 1 meeting filling out a questionnaire to be nitpicked and rejected by an adult is NOT Scouting.

Again, the boy’s disability or lack of should not enter into this at all. You’re not looking for any special accommodation, just looking for a board of review that follows the BSA advancement process without adding additional hurdles.

I’d be willing to bet that this troop has “bylaws” too, another unneeded document written up by a controlling adult.

[jr56]

This is ridiculous. The form is in such violation of national policy it's not even funny.
Go over these morons immediately, somebody who knows what the scout advancement program is all about needs to set these people straight immediately.
The problem is not with your son, good luck to him, he sounds like an outstanding scout who would do well, if his troop was following the scouting program instead of something they have made up on their own.

[MDEagle]

While I haven't seen anything approaching this level of local tweaking of the approved national policies, we've probably all run into some people like this AC in the past.

In my view, they think that the Scout isn't getting what he could from the program unless they can find a way to make it as miserable as possible. The Scouting program becomes more focused on the adult volunteers (and how to satisfy their whims) than it does the boys.

The BOR, in my experience, is a chance to informally interact with the boy and gather his opinions, likes, dislikes back to the Committee... not to interrogate them.

My favorite questions are "What do you like best about our Troop? What do you like least?" and "Is there any activity or camping destination you'd like to do/go to that we haven't in the past year?"

Most of the Scouting requirements seem pretty straightforward to me. Why can't people simply do them? In the end, we do want Scouts to have fun, not hate the program.

[scoutaholic]

The form is definately not in keeping with the BSA BOR guidelines. If the form is given to the BOR members along with an advancement report, then what is the purpose of the form. All the pertinent information should be on the advancement report.

Making the boys fill out such a form before BOR is against BSA policy. I do, however, see one use for this form. Give it to Warren a few weeks before the BOR, so he can collect his thoughts and prepare. He could fill in answers and take it with him as his prompt sheet. There is no reason that he shouldn't be allowed a prompt sheet with such pertinent information. (I might see a problem if Mom/Dad wrote an answer script for a boy to take to BOR, but his own writting would be no problem. In Warren's case, I could see the reasoning for Dad/Mom to help write some of it.)

[wagionvigil]

Every boy is this troop is getting the shaft. Except the favored ones that the BOR want to advance.

[WVBeaver05]

Simply put - this is CLEARLY adding to the requirements, so it is not allowed.

Going further, this is NOT close to the way a BOR is run!!

If it was happening to me, I would discuss the proper procedures with the unit leaders (having the documentation ready, advancement booklet, SM Handbook, etc.) With any luck they just don't know that they are doing it WRONG. If that doesn't get a change for the better, then right on up the line I would go.

Start with Unit Commissioner. But if necessary, I would take this all the way to National. Of course, you should be prepared to find another unit if necessary. I have seen that local Districts and Councils are reluctant to address problems with units for fear of losing the unit or the leaders which could result in losing the unit.

But in my opinion, it has to be stopped. We can't allow our Scouts to be treated like this.

YiS

[pipestone1991]

Simply, this form is adding to the requirments like all before me said.

[Mrw]

As an Advancement Chair in our troop, I cannot imagine trying to institute a program the way this is run. Just getting the forms filled out and returned would be a full time job.

My son was never tested (an argument for a different forum) but shares all his dyslexic father's communication issues with written (and sometimes oral) communications. Rather than Eagle at 16, he would have quit before Tenderfoot if he had to add this type of busy work to scouting as well as school.

We keep a running list of who needs SM conferences and BOR's. We get them done at least once a month, but often are doing them 2-3 meetings due to the number of boys who need them.

You definitely need to have some training for the AC and some district intervention for this kid.

[FrankJ]

I cannot imagine an advancement chair being that involved in a SM conference. (scheduling maybe in a large troop) It would take me longer to fill out the form than the conference does. The SM should know the scout well enough before the conference to know what needs to be covered & if there are issues with something like scout spirit.

[wagionvigil]

This is not a large troop only 24 or 25 boys so the problem is????????
The ADULTS!!! THAT want to be GOD!

[Mrw]

I cannot imagine an advancement chair being that involved in a SM conference. (scheduling maybe in a large troop) It would take me longer to fill out the form than the conference does. The SM should know the scout well enough before the conference to know what needs to be covered & if there are issues with something like scout spirit.

If you were referring to my comment about keeping a running list to make sure they get done, we have about 50 on the roster right now, and the younger ones sometimes need to be prompted to go and ask the SM for a conference the first time or two.

I also try to have the boys show me their books if they don't seem to be advancing along with their buddies. It keeps them from falling through the cracks.

[FrankJ]

MRW: I should have been more clear. I was speaking more toward the advancement chair making the scout fill out a questionaire to have a scout master conference.

I think your comments are quite reasonable.

[mhjacobson]

The advancement flow chart goes like this:

1. scout learns a skills
2. scout demonstrates the skill
3. the scout's book gets signed off on the skill
4. the scout tells the SM that he is ready for a scoutmaster conference for rank (if the SM does not already know)
5. the SM conference takes place
6. The BOR takes place
7. Except in RARE instances, the scout get rank

Where is the place for such a form in the flowchart -- NOWHERE!!!
Does the AC act as a gatekeeper for the SM conference -- NEVER!

[maricopasem]

If it was happening to me, I would discuss the proper procedures with the unit leaders (having the documentation ready, advancement booklet, SM Handbook, etc.) With any luck they just don't know that they are doing it WRONG. If that doesn't get a change for the better, then right on up the line I would go.

I appreciate WVBeaver's response. He's the only one who suggests visiting with the offenders first and then pursuing up the chain of authority. Perhaps the off-with-their-heads-esque shouts of, "Call National! Call a lawyer!" should be preceded by statements like, "How can we teach these individuals and help them understand? How can we assist them to receive the proper training? How can I be of service to the troop instead of murmuring online in a virtual equivalent of a stoning." Remember that a Scout leader's responsibility is to lead, to teach, and to serve, and that said duty is not limited to his interaction with young men.