Board of Review

[vpalango]

Uforester: First of all welcome to the group. Second of all you say

ALL TESTING is conducted by scouts in preparing a scout for the SM conference, and the SM conference. The SM during the conference has the right and responsibility to test a scout as to their retention of the skills learned, especially during the first three ranks.

I am not sure if I agree with this. If the requirement says "demonstrate" & the scout has done this, signed off. The requirement is met. This is my understanding of written national policy. Not being able to do it a week later in the SM conference doesn't change that. If during the scout master conference you think a scout is weak in a certain area you can & should encourage the scout to work on his skills. One of the reasons I like older scouts teaching advancement is that it reinforces the teacher's skills.

Advancement, although important, should be a secondary goal of the program. Things done just to meet an advancement requirement will done to a mimimun and poorly retained.

Also, don't forget that some requirements do explicitly require a SM to sign off ("Present your self to your scoutmaster properly prepared to a campout"). This cannot be tested by the scouts.

Also, the ability to sign off (as I understand it) is a duty/responsibility specifically delegated to scouts depending on the policies of the unit. Certainly, many requirements can be signed off by scouts in many cases, but there may be circumstances within a unit (a predomanently young troop for instance) where some requirements are signed off by a SM rather than a boy. Having just re-gone through SM specific recently, one of the themes I took away is the need for units to be flexible to the needs of the boys within the program. This means that in terms of advancement, troops will follow different rules on how things get approved depending on the unique circumstances of that group.

VLP

[Scouting179]

Back to the discussion about scoutmasters or parents attending an Eagle board of review. In the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" book it states on page 32:

"The candidate's unit leader introduces him to the members of the board of review. The unit leader may remain in the room, but does not participate in the board of review. The unit leader may be called on to clarify a point in question. In no case should a relative or guardian of a candidate attend the review, even as a unit leader"


So a scoutmaster may attend and observe unless he/she is related to the Eagle candidate. Parents may not attend.

Preciesly. Thanks for looking it up. I only said parents shouldn't be there, I know the SM is allowed.

[evmori]

Back to the discussion about scoutmasters or parents attending an Eagle board of review. In the "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" book it states on page 32:

"The candidate's unit leader introduces him to the members of the board of review. The unit leader may remain in the room, but does not participate in the board of review. The unit leader may be called on to clarify a point in question. In no case should a relative or guardian of a candidate attend the review, even as a unit leader"


So a scoutmaster may attend and observe unless he/she is related to the Eagle candidate. Parents may not attend.

Preciesly. Thanks for looking it up. I only said parents shouldn't be there, I know the SM is allowed.

The SM is allowed providing his son isn't the Eagle candidate. When my son had his Eagle BOR, one of my ASM's took him. I stayed home and paced! He passed!

[Mrw]

When my older son had his, there were two Eagle BOR's scheduled that night. Brent's dad sat on my son's and then I sat on Brent's.

I have actually never had a parent ask to sit in on his/her son's BOR. I have explaned what they are for and what kind of things we ask and that, apparently, has always been enough information.

[summertop]

So...A Scoutmaster can "observe" an Eagle Board of Review. Is this at the discretion of the board? In otherwords, does the Board have the right to ask the Scoutmaster to leave?

I will sometimes present one of my scouts to the board and give a verbal recomendation, then the board asks me to step out. Which I willingly do because the board is for the scout and I don't want to cause a negative experience.

Would it be appropriate for me to approach the board before the review and request to remain?

[Mrw]

My younger son had the SM sit in on his BOR and wasn't entirely happy about it as he didn't like the guy too much.

He did feel comfortable enough though, to criticize him during the revies when asked about things he would change. They have reached an understanding since then that allows them to work together much better.

[summertop]

Ouch. Didn't like his scoutmaster? But at least he stuck with it to get his Eagle.

[Mrw]

He was comparing him to an earlier scoutmaster which wasn't quite fair.

He and his friend used to complain to me about things the SM did that they didn't like and I would go to the SM with suggestions about what had worked before, so he "didn't need to recreate the wheel."

He learned they were more capable and he eased off. Now they get along much better.

[w9lqi]

Lynda J

I just trolled down the list and found this threat this am and was struck that there is a parallel in my plea for help for Warren (see Star BOR FOr Disabled Scout, How Handled).

In Warren's case, there is a new dad on the BOR but around the troop for a while. An Eagle himself. This guy tried to get Warren thrown out of the troop in May 05 after Warren and a "melt down" which was in fact a seizure, at the April 05 Camporee.

That was confirmed by the neurologist the following Monday morn. She also admonished us as parents to not let that happen again. In that case, the AC/ASM pushed me aside and said buzz off dad we'll handle Warren. The other woman was the self appointed disabilities awareness expert for the troop. They drove Warren into seizure by allowing him to overheat (extremely dangerous when you're on depakote -seizure med and Paxil, anxiety med), over tired and worst of all, dehydrated. I had it out with that AC this weekend camporee again when she tried to push me aside. I let her have it hard. Her response was to run away and not take responsibility for her actions. It's one of those deals of "grab the power and glory but run from the responsibility", in this case a boy's life!

In the mean time "Eagle man" has let everybody know how hard it was for him to make Eagle, and by God they got standards and we need to uphold the standards and it shouldn't be easy. He was on Warren's BOR and proceeded to screw him over but good in the BOR. In the debriefing I had asked Warren who was on his BOR and when he described this guy it was (and remember this is a disabled boy talking) "The fat faced guy with a mustache, big gut and a frown" I could for a little while see with a child's eye how this "self important ego soaked jerk" presented himself to the boys, my son included. That same guy has been after Warren in a critical way every time he thinks he sees an infraction by Warren. At this point I am wondering just who need the therapy.

As a post script, I filed a request for help with the District Disabilities Committee lady last Friday so we'll see where this goes. I'm prepared to take it national if I have to. As advised on this blog by the kind folks, I reviewed the BSA rules on BOR and it is reasl straight forward and simple, just........"a friendly chat".

Making up the rules as we go along is probably more wide spread than I realized. I Warren's case, I will take it right on up the line. he deserves better from us as leaders and parents. Thank heavens for this blog.


Hutch

[wagionvigil]

Make the call to your council executive NOW! DO Not Wait. If he refuses to talk or meet explain you wil be contacting your attorney and National That will usually wake them up.

[cballman]

Hutch this also sounds like an almost classic case of abuse. it is not physical but mental abuse. which is against the law and the guide to safe scouting. like Wagionvigil said call the Council Exec. first explain the problem then if nothing is done then i would call a lawyer and name names get to the bottom of the problem quickly. If they are doing this to your son then what are they doing to the other kids? the only time I have seen a failed BOR is when the scout has done something bad and was told to come back a few weeks later when he took care of his problem. but PLEASE make the call not just for Warren but the other kids in the troop.

[FrankJ]

In the mean time "Eagle man" has let everybody know how hard it was for him to make Eagle, and by God they got standards and we need to uphold the standards

He is right. We do have standards and he is not following them. The BOR is suppose to review what the scout has done in a friendly way & not some mythical eagle standard.

BTW I think involving a lawer at this point is counter productive. Working it through council is the way to go.

[joat]

I agree. Approaching this threatening to pull the "lawyer" card will get you nowhere fast. I still think this has less to do with a disability, and everything to do with troop leadership either not understanding the program or making up their own rules.

[Hubert]

Ok. I am just getting on this topic, sorry everyone for being a little late! lol.

But, I also have a parent like this, but he is not like that to eveyone, mainly to me. He want shis son to do better than me, or have it seem like this. I have mentiond him in a few other posts. But, I went to the SM as I was told and it worked somewhat...he still has that attitude twards me, but, he has backed off.

To my knowledge, a BoR was NOT a test. It was to see how scouting has helped you in life and how you have grown and matured with the rank. We have never tested a kid on the material, but on life skills. Not "tie this knot" but "How has scouting effected you in everyday life?" (Quote from a BoR I had) They ask us what we have done and how we have applied our scout skills elsewhere than just the meeting.

[ASM-142]

You can also sit observe the BOR (even record it) as a parent since nothing is scouting can be excluded from parents.

[Lynda J]

Your Council Advancement Chair and your District Ex. need to be contacted immediately. This Scouts BOR needs to be appealed.
I don't know if the attorney threat will have much affect on this guy. You get these guys that think because they made Eagle it gives them some special power to control things. They normally have such big egos that they don't see that they have done anything wrong. But normally the appeal process through the Council will put a leash on them.

But one thing you need to remember. DON"T GO IN ANGRY. Don't start out with name calling. Be very factual and calm. But very matter of fact. Put your concerns in writing. Listing the problems you see.

You do have the right to have someone sit in on the BOR. It is not a closed door review

[wagionvigil]

I would appeal the BOR and the council higher ups need involved with this troop. But in a large council that may be a problem. The Chartering Organization must be informed of the problem and that is where your troop commissioner comes in.

[jr56]

I agree, don't go in angry, also, have plenty of documentation (such as Advancement Policies and Procedures for example). Now, it's not your opinion against theirs, you have facts and policy on your side. Let the facts do your talking for you.