SM requiring 80% participation for advancement

[aflmom]

I haven't been here in awhile, but am back for some help and advice and preferably documentation. I wrote about this once before, thought it was resolved with a new scout master, but the same problem seems to be resurfacing.

My son, 14, is starting to work on his Eagle project and is planning on completing it this month. However, his SM is now saying he has to be particpating at least 80% in scout activities. The troop does not meet in the summer.

This past year he's been limited on the number of meetings he can attend and hasn't been infomed about camp-outs although it was unlikely he could have attended anyway. His reason for not going? College classes. He has completed 58 credits, is a member of Thi Beta Kappa, and will be graduating in December with a dual associates degree and 76 credits before his 15th birthday.

A couple of thoughts.....I'm more than willing to appeal the whole process although I'm tired of 'fighting' to get his academic and other needs met.

His class load will lighten considerably this fall and with his new schedule it shouldn't be a problem attending meetings and camping trips and thus his percentage rates should go up. (The last two semesters he had 18 and 19 credits). Is the percentage counted from when he obtained his Life rank? Also, what about being an independent scout and getting his Eagle that way? There's the option of looking for another troop, but he's been there for several years and really doesn't want to do that although he doesn't have much in common with the current group which consists primarily of younger scouts.

Thanks for you help.

[wagionvigil]

Not a legit request. Nor a requirement. The SM is adding to the requirements and this may have to be addressed with the council.
What the SM is saying is he must attend 80% to be considered active. BUT the BSA says active is being registered.

[joat]

I haven't been here in awhile, but am back for some help and advice and preferably documentation.

Its a funny thing about documentation; it doesn't exist for made-up rules.

Sometimes this made-up "attendance" requirement is used as a definition of "Scout spirit". There is documentation for Scout spirt, and it is found in the Boy Scout Handbook in the discussions of the Scout spirit requirement for the various ranks.

Another angle is that the position of responsibility requirement is not being met if the boy is not attending meetings and activities. It the SM is making that claim, the argument could be made that attendance in itself does not mean the POR is being adequately executed. The challenge for the boy is to demonstrate he is completing the responsibilities in spite of absences.

[aflmom]

I spoke with the SM last night and he did admit that being active and the particpation isn't a BSA policy. He also commented that the other SM required 85% and he's looking at 80%, but isn't going to set a hard and fast rule. He knows that our son's situation is a little different and he's not coming just because he didn't feel like it. Still he would like to see 50-60% participation. Next fall and spring won't be a problem since his course load will be considerably lighter and he has afternoon classes unlike evening classes the past 2 semesters.

Thanks for bringing up the point about the scout spirit and the position requirement. If it becomes an issue, I think the scout spirit can be countered by the volunteer work and mission trips our son goes on. I would have no problems getting letters of recommendation.

The position of responsibility could be a little more difficult although he has been a patrol leander and is an assistant troop leader---in spite of us being open that he wouldn't be able to attend much this past year.

I agree that a scout should be involved in his troop as much as possible, but consideration needs to be made for individual needs. (sigh)

[evmori]

No verboten! Any type of attendance requirement is adding to the requirements. Not allowed!

[jr56]

Agreed, attendance requirements cannot be instituted, that is adding to requirements.

[Lynda J]

If you son has been unable to attend meeting and activities because of college courses it shows that he is a smart kid.

I have one question. Why the rush to get to Eagle? I have a 14 year old that is working on Eagle. He wants to give himself a year. If next year you son won't have the current conflict why not allow him more time to do Eagle.

I HATE attendance requirements and am glad that they are not allowed by BSA. But I also think that if a Scout doesn't attent meetings and be part of the troop and patrol process on a somewhat regular basis that i is an issue also. If he isn't there to help plan camping trips and such he isn't taking part in the government of the troop. If a boy is elected PL but he doesn't attent meetings for 2-3 months, then he isn't fufilling his responsibility as the PL. And not only is that not fair to the boys in his patrol but it isn't fair to him.

[John F.]

I agree that there should be no additional attendance requirements added to make rank. But I don't think it is fair for the troop younger scouts see a scout received his Eagle rank, when this scout has not been active ( does not show up for any of the troop acitvities) in the troop for 2,3 or 4 years. half of the scouts don't know who this boy is recieving his eagle. It would be nice if he would show up for a few meeting before recieving his eagle.

It is almost like retiring from one company but would like another company to hold the retire ceremoney. Because they have some friends there. Most of the workers don't know him but a few do.

[FrankJ]

We have several scouts who already earned all the eagle requirements except their eagle project. They earned there POR & active in the some time ago but now have drifted off to other things and or not now particularly active in the troop. If they complete their eagle project, they will have complete all the requirements for eagle. I expect they will awared the rank they have earned even though some of the new scout will have no idea who they are.

[ronin718]

...Thanks for bringing up the point about the scout spirit and the position requirement. If it becomes an issue, I think the scout spirit can be countered by the volunteer work and mission trips our son goes on...

Maybe I'm not well informed here, but how exactly would mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit? This would certainly go towards earning a religious knot/award, but I don't see the correlation to SS.

Likewise, volunteer work applies to service hours. Using volunteer work as a substitute for attending troop activities/meetings seems like filling the apple barrel with oranges. They're both fruit, but not the right product.

[Hubert]

We dont have a "mandatory show up" rule, but we have a policy thats not "mandatory" but we would like it if you call a leader if you are unable to show. This way they can alter plans or cancel the meeting if theres only going to be a few boys. We have had that happen, I show up, and only one other did. Everyone else had a school event. (I go to a different district lol)

[aflmom]

I'll try to answer some of the questions...As far as getting his Eagle this year vs. next year, or the year after, he's looking at transferring to a university. We're not sure of the exact timing, but he wants to get his Eagle prior to moving. I don't think he's rushing on getting his Eagle per se, but would like to complete his project this month and get his Eagle in Dec. He's had everything done, outside of the project, for about a year. This is his 3rd project plan. He did the initial work on the others, but couldn't get any follow up from the organizations involved and decided to move on. Ironically, he was taking a Project Managment course at the time.

When he was elected Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, by the boys, it was understood he would be gone a lot. He's at every possible meeting he can go to. Unfortunately, his troop doesn't meet over the summer which limits his involvement. He WILL be able to attend this fall due to his class schedule. Up until THIS school year, he has shown up for every meeting including when he was Patrol Leader. He gave up football to be able to attend scouts due to scheduling conflicts. He wasn't willing to give up graduating this year and the courses are only offered once a year. If he had a choice he would never have taken 18 and 19 college credits respectively.

And again, I agree that a scout should be as active as possible. As a scout parent, I've taught merit badges for the troop and participated in fund raisers. I know the scouts by name and try to find common ground with them. I don't drag him to the meetings, drop him off, and then show up only to pick him up.

As far as demonstrating scout spirit, he's been signed off on that, but I suppose it would depend on your definition. Rather than going on summer camping trips and having fun and benefitting himself, he's choosen the mission trips where he feels like he's helping someone or making a difference.

I guess I just get discouraged at times with this whole scout bit. I don't always see the leaders demonstrating scout spirit by being supportive. I suppose I'm also jaded because nothing ever comes easy for him. I know it will help him in the long run, but I still remember what he told me a couple of years ago. "Mom, when I go to scouts, I just want to be a kid and treated like everyone else. I don't want higher expectations placed on me because I'm going to college." (sigh) We kept it a secret for quite awhile until there was a scheduling conflict and he tried to explain it to his SM. That was a mistake based on the SM telling him he was headed for a fall and being called into a meeting and confronted by 3-4 adults. I know I probably sound bitter and I don't mean to be.

After talking to his current SM, I'm confident it will work out and be a non-issue in the end, but ..

[evmori]

...Thanks for bringing up the point about the scout spirit and the position requirement. If it becomes an issue, I think the scout spirit can be countered by the volunteer work and mission trips our son goes on...

Maybe I'm not well informed here, but how exactly would mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit? This would certainly go towards earning a religious knot/award, but I don't see the correlation to SS.

How don't mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit?

[Quailman]

I seem to remember something about "help other people at all times..."

[jr56]

Yes, it would seem that mission trips demonstrate scout spirit.

[ronin718]

...Thanks for bringing up the point about the scout spirit and the position requirement. If it becomes an issue, I think the scout spirit can be countered by the volunteer work and mission trips our son goes on...

Maybe I'm not well informed here, but how exactly would mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit? This would certainly go towards earning a religious knot/award, but I don't see the correlation to SS.

How don't mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit?

I don't know, I'm not familiar with "mission trips". That's why I'm asking.

[Mrw]

The mission trips my son has been on with our church are to various disadvantaged areas where the youth volunteers do anything from home repairs for those not able to do them to visiting seniors to running day camp programs for children who need summer enrichment and meals.

And they pay on average $250 plus fund raising for the privilege.

[wagionvigil]

Why do troops do this stuff? So many meetings,so many outings etc. People complain about 13 and 14 year old Eagles but when they turn 15 16 17 there time is even more valuable but leaders give them a hard time about attending things when they are in Band,or sports or college courses on weekkends. I thought we as adults were to help these young men not hinder or hurt them. I doubt very much if any of these so called leaders would be on this site as they might learn something. For those of you with these problems you need to act and act fast before anymore boys are hurt by this. Go through the proper channels one at a time but set time lines for action then move on. We need to eliminate these people from scouting.

[MDEagle]

Why do troops do this stuff? So many meetings,so many outings etc. People complain about 13 and 14 year old Eagles but when they turn 15 16 17 there time is even more valuable but leaders give them a hard time about attending things when they are in Band,or sports or college courses on weekkends.

Agreed. Another thing that people complain about is that boys "disappear" after making Eagle. I always thought that perhaps, in some way, it was in response to being made so miserable during their journey.

I've seen it over and over on these boards. Clearly there are way too many volunteers who think they must make it as hard as possible for boys to advance, or else they haven't "earned" Eagle.

[aflmom]

MDEagle wrote:

Another thing that people complain about is that boys "disappear" after making Eagle. I always thought that perhaps, in some way, it was in response to being made so miserable during their journey

I really think that's part of the problem. That and getting busier and wanting to do other things. I imagine our son will be a little reluctant to "give back" to the troop and would rather give back to others. However, it won't be an option although I won't require 100% attendance. [/quote]