SM requiring 80% participation for advancement

[Hubert]

I know as soon as I graduate from High School, I will be attending college. I also plan on having my Eagle rank way before then. I want to give back to the troop, but will have to make time. I plan on becoming a leader in the troop, and maybe one day, the scoutmaster. I hope all of my plans work out right.

[scouter01]

Why do troops do this stuff? So many meetings,so many outings etc. People complain about 13 and 14 year old Eagles but when they turn 15 16 17 there time is even more valuable but leaders give them a hard time about attending things when they are in Band,or sports or college courses on weekkends.

Agreed. Another thing that people complain about is that boys "disappear" after making Eagle. I always thought that perhaps, in some way, it was in response to being made so miserable during their journey.
I've seen it over and over on these boards. Clearly there are way too many volunteers who think they must make it as hard as possible for boys to advance, or else they haven't "earned" Eagle.

Well, i think I can shed some light on to this. I play a certain computer game tha alot of other poeple played. It was really fun for me and everyone else I knew who played itt, but then they started quiting. they said it was boring. It started getting boring for me too, but I would set GOALS to accomplish things, and I would be proud of my swelf for finnisheing it. In boy scouts, there (imho) seems to be a mountain. I mean that excitement in your tropp starts low and raises. once you get eagle, you have pretty much done it all and have done most things in boy socuts that you want to do. What else is there do ? There are many things, but poeple don't usually want to do them. It is not always the sm, someetimes it is just the boys.

[Lynda J]

"Mom, when I go to scouts, I just want to be a kid and treated like everyone else. I don't want higher expectations placed on me because I'm going to college." (sigh)

Yet that is exactly what is being ask for, Exceptions because he is taking college classes.

In our troop the expectation is that boys attend meetings and activities.
Yes we do have times when boys can't always attend. Last year one of our best leaders was nominated for SPL. He declined because of activities through drama at school. He took the responsibility of knowing that he could not give to the job what was needed at that time and was fully aware that it would not be fair to the others in the troop to take a POR and not be able to perform the duties of that office. To me this demonstraites more of what Scout Spirit is about that not attending Troop activities because of a something else you want to do. The next election rotation things had changed and he was elected SPL. But he had the time to give to the troop.
A young man in another unit was elected PL before they went summer camp. When school started he discovered that there was a major band conflict. He ask to step down as PL because he wouldn't be about to attend meetings until after football season was over. This demonstrates Scout Spirit and good responsiblity. Knowing you can't fufill the responsibility of a position and not expecting the troop to suffer because of that takes great maturity and courage. It also shows you are putting the needs of the troop or patorl before your own personal needs.
If a boy takes on the responsibility of a position, then never shows up and doesn't preform the responsibilities of that position, what example does that set for the younger boys coming into the troop or patrol. Take on a job, don't show up, but be given credit for not doing the job anyway. And what about the boy that was APL. APL isn't a POR for rank. SO he took on the responsibilities of the PL but did not get credit for the position. Simply isn't fair. And IMHO not an examply of Scout Spirit I would want to put out there.

[WVBeaver05]

Lynda J - I agree with what you said.

As and addition, I hold that it is the responsibility of the Troop leadership (adult and Youth) to remove Scouts from Postions of Responsibility if they are not fulling the responsibilties of that position. That takes care of the fairness issues that you mention.

YiS

[evmori]

...Thanks for bringing up the point about the scout spirit and the position requirement. If it becomes an issue, I think the scout spirit can be countered by the volunteer work and mission trips our son goes on...

Maybe I'm not well informed here, but how exactly would mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit? This would certainly go towards earning a religious knot/award, but I don't see the correlation to SS.

How don't mission trips demonstrate Scout Spirit?

I don't know, I'm not familiar with "mission trips". That's why I'm asking.

If you aren't familiar with mission trips, how can you make the statement that you don't see the correlation to SS? Mission trips are a great way to live the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life!

[Hubert]

I agree fully with you LyndaJ. The fact that a boy can see that he will not be able to hold a posisition, and activly serve, is a huge sign of scout spirit. The fact that he can own up to it, and openly deny a posisition like this, is a huge sign, and a sign of maturity. I respect that.

I also agree that if you hold a posisition of that nature, you should do the job. I also have that issue in my troop, a boy is "SPL" but he does nothing. I plan and run the meetings. I do not agree with the fact that he holds the posisition, and I do all the work. I agree with you LyndaJ that if you hold the PoR, you need to do the job. If not, you do not set a bad example for the younger boys, but also show poor scout spirit.

[Lynda J]

And Justin you are probably not the only boy in your troop that resents the SPL for not doing his job but know that he will get credit for the position. What is really sad to me is when the other boys in the troop begin to resent one boy because he either is elected to a position and doesn't perform his job. Or he is given special consideration where none is actually warrented.

[ronin718]

[quote="ronin718]
I don't know, I'm not familiar with "mission trips". That's why I'm asking.

If you aren't familiar with mission trips, how can you make the statement that you don't see the correlation to SS? Mission trips are a great way to live the Scout Oath & Law in your everyday life![/quote]

Because they can take on any number of meanings. For some church-sponsored mission trips, these could be a youth proselyting activity, which wouldn't have much to do with the Oath and Law, but simply be a religious activity.

I don't believe BSA endorses any specific sect, and one probably isn't permitted to proselyte in uniform. IMO, an activity that can't be done wearing a Scout uniform shouldn't be considered an example of Scout Spirit.

Next shot.....

[wagionvigil]

Fund Raising cannot be done in uniform. And I am quite sure many troop leaders would consider not participating in a fund raising would be showing lack of scout spirit.

[ASM-142]

... IMO, an activity that can't be done wearing a Scout uniform shouldn't be considered an example of Scout Spirit.

Next shot.....

The "Scout Spirit" requirement for EACH rank and for Eagle Palms reads

"Demonstrate scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.",

so everyday activities, whether with or without a uniform, are always considered examples of Scout Spirit.

[FrankJ]

Scout spirit to me is following the scout oath & law. We spend very little of our lifes in uniform. Who wouldn't count a good turn just because a scout was not in uniform. What are some of your good turns? comes up in my SM conferences.

[Quailman]

There's a lengthy thread going back and forth regarding SM conferences and BOR's in which the concensus seemed to be that uniforms aren't required.

[evmori]

There's a lengthy thread going back and forth regarding SM conferences and BOR's in which the concensus seemed to be that uniforms aren't required.

They aren't.

[Hubert]

OK guys, lets not start on that one here too! Lets keep that one in its own thread! lol

[ronin718]

Fund Raising cannot be done in uniform. And I am quite sure many troop leaders would consider not participating in a fund raising would be showing lack of scout spirit.

Not even popcorn? Or Council approved fundraisers? And by uniform, that would also include the "Class B" t-shirt identifying the association with a specific troop.

[wagionvigil]

Read the rules for fund raising. Council sales are allowed to wear uniforms but unit fund raising. No!
A unit t shirt is not a uniform and you cannot wear it with official pants or shorts when fund raising.

[Hubert]

I was granted special permission to wear my uniform to fundraise. It was for my Eagle project. At the board, when I was getting my project apporved, I asked that question. It surprised the board that a scout was asking that question, and not a parent. They however, did not know the answer. They debated it for a few, then granted me the will to wear it, since it was for my Eagle Project. But, it did take time, they did not know the answer to it. It was kind of funny to see the "higher ups" tripping over a yes or no question. I know its not that easy, to say yay or nay, but still, it made me giggle. lol.

But this is the only time I have ever heard of a scout being able to wear his uniform to fund raise, man, I feel special!

[joat]

There are several situations where wearing the uniform for fundraising is appropriate. See the back side of the Unit Money-Earning Application. http://www.scouting.org/forms/34427.pdf

[WeeWillie]

Go tell your Scout's coach, faculty advisor or band director that he will miss a bunch of practices and a couple of games, meets, competitions, and concerts to attend Scout events and see how they react. Why should we accept a lower standard of committment than other activities? Read the Scout Law section on Loyality in the front of the handbook.

How are we to have a boy run troop when our older Scouts, that we gave up weekends and Vacation time to train, disappear to attend other activities? How are we to fufill our responsibilities to the Aims and Methods of Scouting when our Scouts are off doing other things. I realize our Scouts have other interests and should have the opportunity to pursue them without banishing them from Scouting, but we don't have to promote them either. What is wrong with waiting until the season is over to resume active particpation as others have suggested. If M-W-F practice interfers with troop meetings, why not find a troop that meets Tuesday or Thursday. Read the section Particpate in a Scoutmaster conference, page 185. We should be expecting more from our older Scouts, not less.

During my SMCs I discuss their other activities as suggested in the SM Handbook. I don't have a problem with them understanding that they will have to wait out a season before advancing. The problem is not with the Scouts, it is with their parents who want their son to have 3,4, and 5 high intensity activities (and get straight As) and expect me to lower active participation to allow them to do so.

[MDEagle]

The problem is not with the Scouts, it is with their parents who want their son to have 3,4, and 5 high intensity activities (and get straight As) and expect me to lower active participation to allow them to do so.

As a parent of a younger Scout, I will say that it's easy to fall into the trap of "too many activities." You just have to balance things out, listen to your kids, and guide them the best you can.

Our son is musically gifted (he must be the milkman's kid), and his piano teacher sees a prodigy. However, he can't dedicate two hours a day to practice, which is what he needs to meet her expectations. So, we talked to him to see what he wanted to do with his music. Yes, he wants to continue to improve, but he wants to play for his own enjoyment. He doesn't want a career in music, doesn't enjoy the competitions we've been dragging him to, and doesn't want to discard all of his other activities to concentrate on piano. He also wants to take up guitar.

So, it's time to reset expectations. We're not doing any more competitions, advanced theory tests, etc. etc. We've explained this to his teacher, and she is going to have to accept the direction he wants to go with his music (with our support). If she doesn't... well, there are other teachers.

So, for us, we're dramtically decreasing the intensity of one activity. Over the summer, we may let him resume a sports related activity, which he had to suspend for lack of time during the school year. And, he may get the guitar out and play around with it.

Now, he hasn't slowed down in Scouts, because he likes it. Hasn't missed a campout in over a year. If he didn't like Scouts so much, we'd encourage him to stick with it (because we want to encourage healthy and moral pursuits) but we wouldn't be pushing him to advance.

Who knows, in a year's time, maybe he'll want to concentate on another activity. I doubt it, but it's possible. I hope that if he does, we'll have the grace to let him back off on his Scouting... with the expectation that advancment will also slow.