Qeustion about listings for restrictions for a badge

[bearpatrolleaderinctown]

I was/might take Enviromental science at summer camp this year but then my scoutmaster called last night and said that you have to be first class and told me that i could not take it since i am not going to be first class by summer camp. but on my councils camp website they said first class OR 13 years of age i am going to email someone at the camp to see what they thought but i also wanted some other opinions.

"Scouts working on Environmental Science Merit Badge need to bring pen and paper every day to class. Scouts should also bring a clear 2 liter bottle with them on Monday. This is a difficult merit badge. Scouts must be 13 years old or a First Class Scout to participate. This merit badge also requires out-of session observations during some twilight periods." This is where it says first class or 13 years of age.

"Environmental Science MB 13 ½ 1st Class Na Na" here it just says 13 1/2 and first class from what i get from it.

the website address is www.campbonner.org and go to summer program and the nature page and the Age,Rank Restrictions, Fees , Partial completions page.

[wagionvigil]

Sorry I agree with age restrictions on some Merit Badges.
E science is difficult and time consuming and is for the older scout that has been to camp a couple of years. I know that the boys would spend at least 4 hours a day on this while at camp and there is little time for anything else.
1 hours class
2 hours of observation
1 hour writing up your observation plus other items for the next class.

[pipestone1991]

I suggest taking another Eagle req badge.....this one is a very hard badge and you should be at least 1st Class in my opinion, I was.

[bearpatrolleaderinctown]

i know what you guys are coming from but the thing i have is that i have only been in scouting about a year and i am almost 15 1/2 and i am trying to get eagle before i get out of scouts.
and all eagle required requires you to be first class or above to take so in my opinion they are trying to help younger scouts who have some time before them before they help older ones that just joined IMHO

[wagionvigil]

well if you are 13 you can take the MB is not 1st class or 13 ? You would be eligible because of age.

[pipestone1991]

I'm lucky, I'm 15 1/2 with only my project left....as for u, it's time to get on the ball. Not all Eagle req's have a age limit, do another such as swimming.....also, get 1st class asap.......get in contact with mb consolers and get the mbs done, get a leadership position and before long, you'll be in my situation .

[wagionvigil]

Just looked at your camp web site you must meet both requirements rank and age. See if you can get an exception due to age. Ithas been done before.

[scoutaholic]

Environmental Science is one of the more difficult badges. One should not take it without planning on some significant time involvement.
On the other hand, because it is difficult and time consuming, I sometimes encourage boys to take it. Doing it at camp where they are prepared with all the needed materials is much easier than doing it on your own later.

There is nothing specifically in the requirements that would keep a younger or lower ranked scout from completing them. The restrictions at camp, or by your SM, are put in place to limit the class sizes, and not discourage/overwhelm the younger scouts too early.
If your REALLY want to take the badge, then go ahead and try to clarify the rules, or get an exception to them. It may not be worth the fight in the end, especially if you can just do it at camp next year.

BTW, Many camps used to use a 2-Liter bottle to do an ecosystem in a bottle, which is no longer required. You may want to clarify if this is needed for something else, or if the camp manual just hasn't been updated.

[pipestone1991]

and again I say, more than likely it would be more convenent to get swimming done at camp (I didn't, but I was just at the right place at the right time)......I suppose it would be possible to get swimming and env. science at camp....shame the ecosystems aren't required anymore....those made the badge hard....and failed 50% of the kids right from the start.

[bearpatrolleaderinctown]

I know where you are coming from wigonval but on one page it says one thing but then on another on my camps website it says the complete oppisite so to me it seems like that they just set them up for a giant "ball of fire" of angry scouts who followed on page but found out that the council used the other page.

[Mrw]

Ask for an exception because you are well past their minimum age and started in scouts later than most boys do. (I seem to remember you saying you were in a very new troop.)

Our camp does not have age restrictions for E Sci and we have had second year scouts do very well with it.

[bearpatrolleaderinctown]

ill talk to my scoutmaster about this friday when i go with my grandma to drop off my brother at a service project thanx for ur opinions

[lifescoutforlife]

More and more camps are going to age restrictions for MB's. I can understand this if there is state laws like for shooting or safety reasons as in climbing but some of these age restrictions are getting out of hand. And what does rank have to do with some of them? Like the boy in the 1st post is saying 13 and 1st class, there is 13 year old eagle scouts that had to get every eagle required badge. People think that will keep kids coming back for years but it chases they away just as much.

[Mrw]

Our camp only has ages for climbing and motorboating - both for logistics reasons. They can only accomodate so many and this keeps them from having to turn away too many on the first day.

Beyond that, there may be a size requirement for shotgun shooting as there are some really tiny first year scouts out there!

[evmori]

Yep Environmental Science is one of the more difficult badges to earn, but there are no age or rank requirements for this badge. Sounds like you council camp is in violation of policy.

[wagionvigil]

Most Council Camps set some age or rank requirements on some MB's. This has a lot to do with numbers and scheduling. For Instance Although not a MB there is an age restriction for COPE and if your climbing program is operated under COPE then there is an age standard in the COPE Standards that must be met. I have talked to Climbing Counselors from all over the country and most require an age standard. Yes most boys can climb,yes most boys can rappel although the younger the scout the more chance of a walk back, Now Belaying is another issue and it s a safety issue. Ed would you want a 10 1/2 year old scout belaying for you?
Camps set these ages to give the younger scouts the opportunity to return as an older scout to get these MB. At my camp most of the E science boys were 2nd or 3rd year scouts.
Now that being said if a MB class has openings they open it up by age and Birthdate of the younger scouts wishing to take the MB.

[ASM-142]

i know what you guys are coming from but the thing i have is that i have only been in scouting about a year and i am almost 15 1/2 and i am trying to get eagle before i get out of scouts.
and all eagle required requires you to be first class or above to take so in my opinion they are trying to help younger scouts who have some time before them before they help older ones that just joined IMHO

What do you have remaining to become 1st Class? Being that you have been in the troop for a year you should close to 1st Class and should be able to earn 1st Class before summer camp

[OldGreyBear]

At first I was going to get ballistic and medieval on the Camp's butt for putting up requirements to take Merit Badges, as its been pointed out that you can't do that, but consider:

Lets say I lose my mind and agree to "teach" a Citizenship in the World class for a merit badge university and 100 scouts sign up. There is no one else to help, do I take on all 100 scouts or do I start to pare down numbers based on rank and age? Do I put on a miserable experience for 100 or do I do it right for 15 and make 85 mad at me? The point is, no one would expect a single counselor to take on more scouts than they can handle and neither should a camp. These requirements are the way the camp pares things down to a size they can handle. Obviously the scout in question is an an unusual circumstance and should talk to the program director as soon as possible and work out something.

[RWSmith]

First and foremost, we all know there are no age restrictions on earning any MB (except, of course, that little 18-y/o thingy). However, as a matter of effective program and/or risk management, the Scout Executive, Camp Director, or Program Director should have the authority to impose certain age/rank limitations on certain activities, including certain MBs. I'm fine with that, as long as they do it for the right reason(s).

Plus, there should always be the provision to hear a Scoutmaster's request (on behalf of a Scout) for an exception... E.g., If a kid has been waterskiing since he was 3-1/2 y/o... why should he have to wait 'til he's 13 to take that MB.

[MDEagle]

Lets say I lose my mind and agree to "teach" a Citizenship in the World class for a merit badge university and 100 scouts sign up. There is no one else to help, do I take on all 100 scouts or do I start to pare down numbers based on rank and age?

I certainly agree there is some limit to the amount of boys you (or anyone else, for that matter) would be able to effectively counsel. I think it's fair that the camp limit the number of participants. I have a bit of a problem with limiting who can even try to take the badge.

Let's say there are 15 spots available, and only 10 "eligible" Scouts sign up for the badge. That means the camp has wasted 5 spots which have "gone to waste." Maybe some of those could have been filled by younger Scouts who had a sincere interest in going for the badge.

Aren't badge spots, First Come, First Served? I took some Scouts to a Merit Badge Day, and we were late to the party, so those boys had to choose from what was left. Which is totally OK - I wouldn't have expected the sponsor to boot younger Scouts out so my older Scouts could have their pick.

By imposing an age/rank restriction, I don't see how the camp hasn't imposed restrictions above and beyond the official Scouting position. Even if they honestly believe it makes sense.