SM requiring 80% participation for advancement

[optimist]

Go tell your Scout's coach, faculty advisor or band director that he will miss a bunch of practices and a couple of games, meets, competitions, and concerts to attend Scout events and see how they react. Why should we accept a lower standard of committment than other activities? Read the Scout Law section on Loyality in the front of the handbook.

I see three problems with this premise. The first has to do with the length of the Scouting program. Unlike sports and music, Scouting is year-round. Requiring a Scout to always choose Scouting over other activities is stating that ALL other activities are not as good as and not as important as Scouting. It's nice to have such a high opinion of the program but I don't think it is universally shared.

Second, while there are some competitions in Scouting, competition and performance are not the focus of Scouting. They are the focus of sports and music. If you miss too many practices, you may cause havoc during a game or ruin a musical performance. Boys can take off half a year from Scouts and jump right back in without affecting anyone else.

Third, it works both ways. There are key times when I expect my Scouts, especially the boy leaders, to favor Scouting over their other programs. Normally, this would be during preparation for camporees and summer camp although it can also be for other things. If I feel their attendence is important, I let them know. But how could I expect them to give the troop priority during those times if I didn't give them the opportunity to choose their other programs during other times?

[WeeWillie]

Optimist

You may have missed my comment "What is wrong with waiting until the season is over to resume active particpation as others have suggested." Two weeks ago I had a non-advancement SMC with a Scout who wanted to play varsity tennis. Practice starts in Jan and the season runs Mar-Apr. As we went through the troop's annual program he could particpate in all but two camping trips. (80%)

In another situation I had a parent who had his son in basketball, swimming, track, Hands Accross The Border (we are 20 miles from Mexico), concert band, NHS. He missed 3 summer camps and averaged 1.5 camping trips a year. Dad accused me of holding up his advancement to Eagle.

Two entirely different situations.

By the way, I think 80% is too high for active participation, but not for POR.

[wagionvigil]

There again we are putting a % on POR which there is no place that says you can.
OK can we look at it this way. Johnny is thge SPL and he gets involved with something at school for like 8 weeksn BUT Johnny being a good SPL contact the SM and his ASPL. During that time he does check in with both of the above. Is he doing a good job?Even though he is not in attendance.

[ASM-142]

A SPL can do a good job without attending meetings providing he knows how to use his ASPL, troop guide, PLs, etc

[FrankJ]

A SPL can do a good job without attending meetings providing he knows how to use his ASPL, troop guide, PLs, etc

I can count on one hand of the number of leaders I know who that good. Adult or scout.

Edited by me (corrected spelling)

[scoutaholic]

Go tell your Scout's coach, faculty advisor or band director that he will miss a bunch of practices and a couple of games, meets, competitions, and concerts to attend Scout events and see how they react. Why should we accept a lower standard of committment than other activities? Read the Scout Law section on Loyality in the front of the handbook.

...Unlike sports and music, Scouting is year-round....

Second, ... If you miss too many practices, you may cause havoc during a game or ruin a musical performance. Boys can take off half a year from Scouts and jump right back in without affecting anyone else.

Third, it works both ways. There are key times when I expect my Scouts, especially the boy leaders, to favor Scouting over their other programs. ...

Many music programs are year-round, and so are some sports. Those that aren't can easily be put together to make a year-round sports program (Baseball+Basketball+Hockey+Football+etc.).

A boy can't jump back in after six months without affecting the rest of the troop. In his absence, the group will have learned to work together without him. When he comes back, a new place in the group has to be created, expecially if he expects to come back into a leadership position. It takes time to readjust the group dynamics to allow for a new member whatever his position in the group.

Admittedly, there are times when a boys attendance is more important, and we have to be flexible with other things taking them away from scouting activities at other times.

The ones that really annoy me are the ones who spend most of their time away from the troop pursuing other interrests, and then it is my fault (as SM) that they aren't Eagles yet.
I had a boy a while back who had been in boy scouts for nearly 3 years. He told me he had a goal of getting his Eagle. However, his priority seemed to be his 3 baseball teams, 2 basketball teams, and I don't know how many other sports. He was a Tenderfoot, and needed the 5-mile map & compass hike to finish 2nd Class. In the 3 years that he was in the troop, we had done that particular activity at least 3 times, but he didn't come to those activities. I made special arrangements to do the hike on a day that would work with his baseball schedule, so that he could finish it up and get 2nd class. He came to the activity, and did about 1 mile of the hike before he got 'bored' and went home. (I'm so glad I planned a needed activity just for him.)
A few months later, the same boy had committed to go to summer camp. He had paid $20, and our charter organization had covered the rest of his camp fees. 2 weeks before camp, he told me that he had been selected for an all-star baseball team and, if they won enough games beforehand, would be playing in an out-of-state tournament instead of going to camp. I told him that he had committed to go, that the money had been paid, and that we couldn't get the money back. It ticked me off that he had committed to go, and spent someone elses money, but didn't even care about the committment or the money. In the end, his team lost and he went to camp.

[Hubert]

Being a good leader doesnt mean you HAVE to be there. Look at an Eagle Project. If you are not there, it can still be done due to leadership.

[joat]

Being a good leader doesnt mean you HAVE to be there. Look at an Eagle Project. If you are not there, it can still be done due to leadership.

That is a very good point. The challenge for a PL or SPL or Quartermaster or whatever is to arrange things such that the job gets done even when he is not there. The PL can meet with his assistant PL. Maybe hold an extra patrol meeting to go over details such that everything is covered. The QM can check equipment, and perhaps even issue it the day before. On the day of the event the leader can make an early morning phone call, or keep in contact by cell phone.

The point is, a good leader can look ahead and make arrangements to ensure the job gets done, even when he can't be there.

[WeeWillie]

"Be active in your Patrol and Troop" is broadly defined and therefore, highly subjective, unlike "Tie a Rescue Knot" or "Identify 10 native plants" which is narrowly defined and objective. Subjective requirements do not fit a neatly into the "No additional requirements" policy often cited in this forum. You can not enumerate rules that apply to all the situations likely to be encountered in Scouting. This is Scouting, not contract law with clauses, appendices and codicils to address every situation.

Scout leaders are expected to apply sound judgement when applying the Aims and Methods of Scouting. Actually expecting our Scouts to show up in order to advance certainly doesn't violate sound judgement. You don't normalize requirements for exceptional situations. You treat exceptional circumstances, exceptionally. If a truely exceptional situation arose that required a SPL to miss two months, the remedy is to extend his tenure so he can make up the lost time, not phone calls to the SM, ASPL, PLs... which probably consume more time than actually showing up.

As Scoutaholic points out, the problem is not the ocassional absence, or the exceptional absence, it is with the consistent absence. And as I pointed out, the problem isn't with the Scout, it is with the Scout's parent(s) who are trying to create a Trophy Kid with a 4, 5, 6 high intensity activities, or the parent(s) trying to get their son in and out of Scouting as an Eagle with as few inconveniences as possible. In my time as SM, I have experienced both.

Justin
The title of the service project workbook is the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, not the Eagle Scout Planning Service Project Workbook. Planning is a function of leadership, leadership is not a function of planning. There have been exceptional situations where a Scout could not lead his project, or even have someone else lead it, but "You don't normalize requirements for exceptional situations."

By the way, who lead your buddy's Eagle Leadership Service Project while he was in the van listening to tunes? Dad?

[Hubert]

Mike,
It was either his dad, my mother, or I who ran it. We were told where the paint brushes were, and that "all those posts over there neded to be painted."
The rest was done by my mother or I, not because we were asked too, but because if we didnt do it, it wouldnt be done, and the project would have been a disaster. But still, if you have to miss your Eagle Service Project, you can with good leadership and planning. Nowhere in the book does it state you have to be there. It does state a number of times, that you must show leadership. In my eyes, the project being completed even with the scouts absence, shows even more leadership and planning. This means that they planned it all out. They took the time to plan it.

Agreed, missing a lot of meetings or events is bad, but still, its not all the parents. I myself enjoyed activities other than scouting. I love scouting, but enjoyed being able to run around and play soccer. That can happen only at a certain time of the year, scouting is year around. So when sports come up, I am not too upset, as long as they call someone and tell them they will be gone.

[9009scoutmaster]

Scouting is a year round program. I have no problem with youth that take part in other youth activities. The youth just has to understand that they have to make a decision when a conflict comes up between scout and other youth activities.
Sometimes as units we have to make changes to accomadate the youth of the unit, example, last Tuesday was the middle school band program which was at the same time as troop meeting, only 3 out of 10 active unit members we involved, solution we move meeting to Monday night. This week school awards program is also on Tuesday with same number of scouts involved therefore we moved meeting for second week. Other than these 2 dates school and band activities have had a conflict with unit meeting only one other time.

[Hubert]

We only have a couple band members. Our main problem is soccer. That conflicts with our meetings. But like I said, it only comes once a year.

[WeeWillie]

Justin

The motto of the Infantry School at Ft Benning GA, where Infantry Officers and NCOs are trained, is "Follow Me". You lead by example. Your buddy chose not to lead. The adult leadership similarly failed to lead by allowing it to happen. There have been situations where a Scout was not present for his project. Reasons! The Scouit could not be present for the project because of a serious, unforseen circumstance (Death in the family, medical emergency) and the project was time sensitive annd could not be delayed. As I stated earlier, exceptional situations should be handled exceptionally. This was not the case. Unfortunately, making excuses for poor performance is not exceptional either

You should submit an Eagle Leadership Service Project Workbook for your efforts on your buddy's project. The project was approved. He planned it, but did not lead it. You did not plan it but you did lead it. Since he is apparently receiving credit for not completing all elements of the project, why shouldn't you?

Here is a site that includes leadership traits from various military service perspectives.
http://leadership.au.af.mil/sls-skil.htm#marines

Soccer is a 10 month activity in Southern AZ which is why I have Scouts with only 2 camping trips a year. I've had two sets of parents blame me for their 15 year old Scouts not being Eagle yet. How many days & nights camping are required for Camping MB?

[WeeWillie]

Justin

Continue with your Eagle Leadership Service Project. I wasn't being serious about submitting a Workbook for your work on someone else project.

[Hubert]

Mike,
Its ok. I do not wish to take his project. I am very proud of the difference I am making. No offense, I am not trying to say "My horse is bigger than his" but my project has a bigger effect on the community. Again, not trying to be mean to him, but mine could save a life one day. So I m sticking with my project. lol.

Thats where we differ on the soccer. We only have three boys taking part. The down side, the two are our patroll leaders. But we somehow get through it. But to those parents, it is not your fault they are not Eagle yet. Its the boys. If the boy wants to advance, he will, if he wishes to stay, he will. Eagle is not just an award, its an honor. You have to earn it. If the boy is not willing to work for such an honor, than thats fine, another boy will.

[optimist]

Many music programs are year-round, and so are some sports. Those that aren't can easily be put together to make a year-round sports program (Baseball+Basketball+Hockey+Football+etc.).

Sorry but this doesn't help your argument. Anyone who's that involved in sports program after sports program after sports program would most likely not be in Scouts anyway.

A boy can't jump back in after six months without affecting the rest of the troop. In his absence, the group will have learned to work together without him. When he comes back, a new place in the group has to be created, expecially if he expects to come back into a leadership position. It takes time to readjust the group dynamics to allow for a new member whatever his position in the group.

I'm must disagree a little here. Patrols are not teams, they are groups of individuals who share a common purpose. Learning to work together is important but not nearly as important as in sports. It's simply not a competition. Things may not be exactly the same after a six month absence but rejoining the patrol just prior to an outing shouldn't wreak havoc either. After all, new Scouts join troops all year long. New players join programs only at the beginning of each season.

[scoutaholic]

Many music programs are year-round, and so are some sports. Those that aren't can easily be put together to make a year-round sports program (Baseball+Basketball+Hockey+Football+etc.).

Sorry but this doesn't help your argument. Anyone who's that involved in sports program after sports program after sports program would most likely not be in Scouts anyway.

I see it all the time. In LDS Church sponsored units, all the LDS boys are registered as scouts when they reach the appropriate age, regardless of interest. Very few LDS scouts make it a priority. In the LDS world, you could say anyone who is that involved in scouts would most likely not be in sports anyway.

A boy can't jump back in after six months without affecting the rest of the troop. In his absence, the group will have learned to work together without him. When he comes back, a new place in the group has to be created, expecially if he expects to come back into a leadership position. It takes time to readjust the group dynamics to allow for a new member whatever his position in the group.

I'm must disagree a little here. Patrols are not teams, they are groups of individuals who share a common purpose. Learning to work together is important but not nearly as important as in sports. It's simply not a competition. Things may not be exactly the same after a six month absence but rejoining the patrol just prior to an outing shouldn't wreak havoc either. After all, new Scouts join troops all year long. New players join programs only at the beginning of each season.

Isn't a "group of individuals who share a common purpose" called a team?

Scouting, in itself, is not a competition, but sometimes the individual activities are. Regardless of the competition involved, the group dynamic still changes any time a boy is added or removed from the group. They may have practiced a particular activity without him. They may have learned to work with a new leader, or new leadership style in his absence.

Obviously, scouting is not a sporting team, and doesn't have a season like many of the sports teams do. I was simply making the point that a boy leaving and then coming back does affect the rest of the patrol.

[WVBeaver05]

Many music programs are year-round, and so are some sports. Those that aren't can easily be put together to make a year-round sports program (Baseball+Basketball+Hockey+Football+etc.).

Sorry but this doesn't help your argument. Anyone who's that involved in sports program after sports program after sports program would most likely not be in Scouts anyway.

It may be hard to argue about "most likely", but we have a couple Scouts that are into multiple sports programs. They are active Scouts and participate regularly (nope they wouldn't get the dreaded 80% that some mis-guided - IMO - leaders and Units use). Sometime they come in mid-meeting after practice, sometimes they leave a local event before it is over or come late in order to participate in sports.

And, no, they aren't advancing as fast as some of the other Scouts. You can argue that they aren't getting all that Scouting has to offer. But are they LEARNING - Scouting skills, citizenship, etc. -- yep. So, do I consider it beneficial to them - you bet!

Now, is there an impact on the Patrol and Troop? Of course. Is this impact negative? Hard to say with certainty. But here is my opinion (FWIW). Yes, their absense in some cases causes extra discussion and perhaps extra work in planning and executing events. However, having seen the same thing in my work environment, I consider this to be good preparation for the remaining Scouts in dealing with these types of situations. It is especially gratifying to see them say things like, "...X is a ball practice tonight, but I don't think they have a game that weekend, I'll call him tonight about Y event and let you know ..."

Just my $0.02.

YiS

[wagionvigil]

Scouts are not going to give up sports or band for scouts so you hav eto make the program work for them regardless of if and when they show. So get over it. I had band soccer dance and drama kids and I made it work. Oh and By the way all those boys made Eagle because the troop was supportative of them. One got a 5000.00 scholarship for being and Eagle from the council and another from the college for his sports ability. He is working on his Phd in Physics. A troop MUST make the program work even if inconviences some people.
AGain GET OVER IT! MAKE IT WORK!

[Hubert]

I was reading the posts between Optimist, scoutaholic, and WVBeaver05, and I think its time for my quick input.


It all depends on how many are in a patrol, and how many are gone. If you have a large number, and one boy leaves, it shouldnt effect you much. If theres a small number, then there might be a problem.

But teamwork, as you said, can be made from this. Being able to get things done in the absence of a scout is truely great, and will show them that just because Johny (random name) is gone, that they can still get the job done. This teaches them that in case of an absence, medical, vacation, or any other thing, that they need to just get it done, make it work as Wagionvigil said. That, will build teamwork.

Thats my 2 cents now.