SM requiring 80% participation for advancement

[Scouting179]

Life is full of choices and sometimes they must be made. Even a full booked kid can make Eagle if he joins at age 11 and wants it bad enough.

As for the "80%" rule and its variations, that is adding to requirements and not legal. National will overturn that on an appeal every time.

[Craft Lady]

Just came across this on another list. National has defined what ACTIVE means...

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resou ... /rank.html

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?
Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).
2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.
3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

So he does have to actually fullfill the requirements of his POR, they can remove a scout for not meeting those requirements.

Jennifer

[WVBeaver05]

Just came across this on another list. National has defined what ACTIVE means...

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resou ... /rank.html

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?
Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).
2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.
3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

So he does have to actually fullfill the requirements of his POR, they can remove a scout for not meeting those requirements.

Jennifer

Yes, that is all correct.

The issue that often comes up with this one is a leader saying, he didn't fullfill the requirements for his POR so I wont' sign it off. That is incorrect. Once he has held the position he has met the requirement for ran advancement. The leadership needs discuss and advise a Scout who is not fullfilling the position requirements - then remove him if he continues to NOT. This should be a last resort, but it cannot be retroactive. If you let him continue in the position then he gets the credit.

YiS

[wagionvigil]

Thankyou very much! You cannot stop the flood after the dam breaks

[RWSmith]

See also: Scoutmaster Conference Training (Supplemental)

Selected quotes:

The board of review is the final step in the advancement. However, the members of the board of review are troop committee members who might not know the Scouts as well as the Scoutmaster. If a Scout's advancement is to be deferred, that should come at the Scoutmaster's conference. While the board of review is not a rubber stamp, the Scoutmaster should not approve the Scout at the Scoutmaster's conference and then expect the board of review to defer the Scout.

A young man who is not ready to face a board of review (the last step in the advancement process) can be counseled if you sense a lack of Scout spirit or leadership. The Scoutmaster conference should not be a time to shut the door on advancement but to work with the Scout to create goals that will allow him to succeed. .... The requirement for advancement is that the Scout participate in a Scoutmaster's conference, not that he "pass" the conference. Even after a negative Scoutmaster's conference, if the Scout desires a board of review, he should be granted his request.

When advancement may be deferred, it is important that there be no surprises. The Scout should not come to the Scoutmaster's conference or board of review thinking that everything is OK and then be surprised that his advancement is deferred. He should have had plenty of warning and guidance prior to the negative Scoutmaster's conference or board of review. "A Scout is friendly," "A Scout is courteous," and "A Scout is kind" should be the points of the Scout Law that guide the Scoutmaster when the advancement of a Scout must be deferred.

Always end a Scoutmaster conference with praise for the positive aspects of the Scout's character, his skill level, and/or his accomplishments. .... There should never be a heavy-handed approach to a conference; this is no attempt at disciplining a wayward Scout. Rather, it should be thought of as a way to make it easier for a Scout to do the things that contribute to the troop's health. Perhaps a Scout can be encouraged to work with younger Scouts or to let other Scouts perform their roles in the troop without badgering. .... Most importantly, the Scoutmaster conference should be a way of encouraging the individual Scout. The Scoutmaster conference is the most personal method in Scouting to assess the needs and desires of a Scout, to encourage and support him, to learn of his fears and hopes, to help him to see himself in the greater context of Scouting, and to encourage his personal growth, both in skills and in living up to the ideals of Scouting.

[RWSmith]

Just came across this on another list. National has defined what ACTIVE means...

http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resou ... /rank.html

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?
Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:

1. He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).
2. He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.
3. He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).

The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

So he does have to actually fullfill the requirements of his POR, they can remove a scout for not meeting those requirements.

Jennifer

Well,

Unfortunately, National addressed two separate rank requirements within the same question. "Be active in your unnit" and "serve actively for [X] months in [X] POR" are not the same animal. So, I think I disagree with your comment. I think you're mis-reading it... The way I read it, is:

Item 1."Registered"... means the youth member is currently registered with the unit and is on the roster at the Council office.
Item 2. "Dismissed"... means the (youth) member has been removed from the unit roster as well as at the Council office, for disciplinary reasons. (There are procedures the Unit and the Council must take when dismissing a youth member for disciplinary reasons.)
Item 3. "Engaged"... This is action on the Unit Leader's part, i.e., Scoutmaster or Asst. Scoutmaster. Whether or not the youth member is attending Troop meetings/activities, or not, is completely irellevant... The question is, is the kid in question being contacted by his (PL, SPL) ASM, SM, on a regular basis?

The kid could be in the hospital for a month with a broken hip. In my world, he's still active. In fact, the way I read it, if the kid is breathing, and reachable, he's ACTIVE in his unit.

Now, OTOH, if the same kid (still in the hospital for a month) is holding the POR of PL (for example)... Ah, well now. That all depends. If I were the SM, I could justify giving him a pass on that month and let it count. Or, I could temporarily move the APL and withhold that month from the kid until he returns. Or, I could use my two brain cells and get the PL and his APL to keep in contact with their Patrol members via telephone or something, i.e., guide them to be creative... get the PL involved while he's laid up. There are many options here. But, as stated earlier, time served (good or not so good) in a POR counts and cannot be taken back. If a kid is really struggling in a particular POR, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If a kid "gives up" on it though, that's where the SMC comes in and the kid is guided into making better choices, even if that means trying a different POR.

[Craft Lady]

Ok well I am curious where you disagree with me because what you say is how I read it as well. I was reffering to the original question posted. This blurb from national seemed to address what was asked.

The boy can not be told he has to be at 80% of the events. Pure and simple, registred, dues paid, and reachable is active.

However the orginal question seemed to also ask about POR. Now there is where a troop could say that a boy is not fullfilling the responsiblity if he is never showing up depending on his POR.

For instance my son is a Den Chief. He could attend 100% of the troop activites and missing the Den Meetings so he would be active in the troop but could be told he is not fullfilling his responsiblity to the Den.

The flip side of that is true. My son could opt to miss the troop events. he would still be active if he is dues paid, reacherable etc... However if he is still doing his service as a Den Chief then he is fullfilling that responsiblity.

I am just still confused where you disagree with me. It sounds to me we are on the same page. I just posted that because I found it today.

Jennifer

[RWSmith]

Okay. <Whew!> I was confused; but no longer. I understand now; we are on the same page. Please forgive. That's why I said I "think" I disagree... I wasn't sure.

BTW, I really liked the example you just gave. Perfect.

[Craft Lady]

No problem... I was just really confused. I was thinking wait I think we agree here unless I am misreading.