EMT certification

[hacimsaalk]

well, i passed my EMT test, so i am now a licensed EMT. since ill be in the troop for at least a while longer, i figure i might as well double as the troop "firstt aider". i was wondering if there are any limitations that national has layed down. i was also wondering when a scout gets hurt, when do they have to go to the hospital (b/c of insurance, nat'l rules, etc)? is there anything else i need to know?

thanks
micah

[wagionvigil]

A Hearty "Way to Go" to you.

[wagionvigil]

Micah as to what you can anc cannot do etc. This would be up to the Committee and the SM at a SCout Camp there Medical STaff are the Providers You would notify them that you are an EMT and avaiable but if not asked you can really do nothing more than stabalize like all first aiders. I will give an example. A friend is a Surgeon and we were involved with a Powder Horn COurse. The Paramedic on the course had the authority while there. The Dr. would only be used when asked or if he actually saw something that was being handled incorrectly and then he would only advise. AS far as When does a scout need to go to the hospital that would again be up to the leadership. Usually any head injury. Cuts that need stitches,broken or dislocated limbs.

[Lynda J]

As a Troop First Aider the only thing I would restrict from your access would be other boys medical records. Only adult leaders should have access to that information.

And congrats on passing your certification

[riverwalk]

Thanks for training as an EMT. Yes it's very mature to figure out any official or legal requirements, ahead of an incident. In Scouting you'll be guided by things like the Guide to Safe Scouting, and local positions on things from the Camp and/or Council officials. These are all obvious. Remember also you answer to the State you're certified in (or license in your case). So any operations outside the scope of your training will subject you to their review.

Generally speaking, remember that a trained person can't hand off the Patient care to a lesser trained individual. I recently downgraded to EMT from Paramedic. My example is that if I had initiated a Paramedic procedure requiring me to monitor it (administering Meds in an IV as example), I could not then hand that duty over to someone not prepared to continue the level of care.

Beyond official "rules", you can't go too far in transporting to a hospital. If the Patient, or family, or anyone in your medical team thinks they need to go, you're better off sending them. Learning later that an injury wasn't bad, is so much better than learning they should have been seen. Hope that helps?

[hacimsaalk]

so, basically just use my skills like i have been trained to use them.
and as far as transporting, transport on aything that i, or others in leadership feel is worhty? sounds pretty straightup to me. oh, and another question- if we do send them, do we have to send an adult or somebody with them? and, can an adult (not the scouts parent) refuse treatment/transport for a scout since they are the "guardians" for the trip?

[wagionvigil]

I would always send an adult during transport with scouts the same as with a pediatric auto accident victim. The scout cannot refuse treatment but since the leaders are their guardians they might be able to but I doubt that they would be that dumb. Leader swill always err or the side of caution

[hacimsaalk]

I would always send an adult during transport with scouts the same as with a pediatric auto accident victim. The scout cannot refuse treatment but since the leaders are their guardians they might be able to but I doubt that they would be that dumb. Leader swill always err or the side of caution

ok. just wanted to clairfy. not saying i would take the adults signature on a refusal. just in the case of anotoher ambulance. i prefer to transport when in doubt. its basically just one of those cover your butt things.

[wagionvigil]

WOW! Now you are learning

[Chief J]

Congratulations on passing the EMT test.

As most before have states, and you reaffirmed, use your training and common sense and if in doubt error on the side of caution.

You will never run afoul of a parent or the legal system if you recomend/send a person to the hospital to be checked out and find out it is a monor injury. You could run into trouble if you decide the injury is not severe enough to go to the hospital and it really is more severe.

Best Wishes,
Chief j

[hacimsaalk]

Congratulations on passing the EMT test.

As most before have states, and you reaffirmed, use your training and common sense and if in doubt error on the side of caution.

You will never run afoul of a parent or the legal system if you recomend/send a person to the hospital to be checked out and find out it is a monor injury. You could run into trouble if you decide the injury is not severe enough to go to the hospital and it really is more severe.

Best Wishes,
Chief j

thats very true. not very many people will sue for sending just in case. i figure its my cert. on the line if i help them out and make the call for them not to go. not a good place to be at. if it looks bad (or like it might have a slight chance of being bad), they're going.

[riverwalk]

Great considerations about refusals. True, many people actually refuse treatment or transportation. But wagion answered it well. The Scout as a minor can't do so. A parent could, but then the attending medical personnel would have to decide if this was a life threatening situation. It gets tough in such cases. I am not dictating any procedure here, just helping your line of thinking. By all means learn what your parameters are by your certifying entity (State), given your Camp role. My experience in Scouting is that the on-site Scout reps (not Scouters but the professionals) will always go for the proper treatment approach. And yes, send an adult with them.

Remember also to log your treatment in the official First Aid Log for that event/Camp. Records can be very important and may not come up for YEARS!

A pound of prevention......and other good sayings, haha.

[hacimsaalk]

Great considerations about refusals. True, many people actually refuse treatment or transportation. But wagion answered it well. The Scout as a minor can't do so. A parent could, but then the attending medical personnel would have to decide if this was a life threatening situation. It gets tough in such cases. I am not dictating any procedure here, just helping your line of thinking. By all means learn what your parameters are by your certifying entity (State), given your Camp role. My experience in Scouting is that the on-site Scout reps (not Scouters but the professionals) will always go for the proper treatment approach. And yes, send an adult with them.

Remember also to log your treatment in the official First Aid Log for that event/Camp. Records can be very important and may not come up for YEARS!

A pound of prevention......and other good sayings, haha.

but, i wasnt sure how the scouting adults came into play ( are they playing "guardian" or wut). i guess it all comes down to how things are drwn up. not really worth losing a charter, my cert, or even going to jail for. better safe than sorry.

well, if its my service that gets called, we have a nifty little thing called a trip sheet (im sure uve been introduced)lol but, otherwise all treatment will be documented.

thanks for all the help thus far guys.

[riverwalk]

Document, document, document as they say, haha. Yes it would matter (generally speaking) how things are drawn up as you say. A Scouter with Scouts, is not the Guardian of any Scout unless that is officially established as a prior relationship. He/She is in authority over Scout safety during their official activity however. So it can seem a little tricky. We can't make this a class in here, but perhaps these thoughts help others as all forums have a larger audience that just the posters.


You can't go wrong (nearly) by acting for the Patient's best interest, your agency's interests, and within the scope of your training. It's one thing for a Scouter to take a youth for treatment even if proper treatment wasn't performed by the Scouter, IF they didn't know better. For you and I, we know that any lack of complaint or obvious (visualized) injury means nothing. We treat based on either the Mechanism of Injury (trauma cases), OR the Nature of Call (medical and not trauma). Those are the guides that will protect all of us.

My example of the Scout with the broken neck is a classic (and not unheard of) one. The Hospital properly treated the broken arms they KNEW were from a 30' fall. That is recognition of "Mechanism of Injury". They didn't find/treat the broken neck however. The best we can do for Patient care goes beyond what we do as First Aiders. Like we teach in Scouting, the "First" simply means there is more to follow. When a Patient is handed off to any next level, they must understand everything you can share about the setting the Patient came from. We once experimented with instant cameras, so we could show the ER folks where/how we found the Patient. They sometimes grasped things better by "seeing" it firsthand.

[hacimsaalk]

so pretty much use my training to the best of my knowledge, document, and always aire on the side of caution, and ill be allright. simple enough/

[Ridge Runner]

Congrats, as a WEMT let me just say to follow your cert's protocols even in the backcountry, and for a great referance get a copy of NOLS Wilderness First Aid.

Again, congrats and welcome to the profession....

[hacimsaalk]

Congrats, as a WEMT let me just say to follow your cert's protocols even in the backcountry,

Again, congrats and welcome to the profession....

thank you. well, i guess you can only follow them as much as your equipment will allow. we usually only have a smple 1st aid kit unless i take along my inbag.

thanks again.

[hacimsaalk]

now ya wanna know wut was tough...trying to teach the scout tonight some first aid. they wanted to do splinting. it was hard trying to take them from what the scout book says to wut i think is common knowledge as far as that goes. almost funny the blank looks it got me.

[Ridge Runner]

In splinting, consider using a Sam Splint as a teaching aid. It'll do almost everything with the exception of a femur fx, or an "open book" pelvic fx; and young scouts find them a hoot to practise with.

Best advice, cover only one or two different splinting techniques during a session and keep it simple. Remember, 11 and 12 year olds have a limited attention span, about 15 mins at best, then it's time to move on. Best technique is to challenge them to think outside of the box in ways to splint an injury using what is only found in their backpack, or enviroment.

If teaching splinting at the older Scout level, maybe consider covering coup, contra coup injuries associated with compound fx's. If teaching C spine to this age level, take a look at Maine's Spinal protocols for WFR's.

[ASM-142]

Also - before you start going to other techniques make sure that they understand what is in the scout handbook