How do you handle immorality on the part of leaders

[mom4-2eaglescouts]

We have a morality issue in the troop. Both parties are productive (do a lot for the troop) but basically deny the relationship. They have been advised to knock off at least the appearance of impropriety, however that has continued although a lesser degree. The older boys who know about it do not respect these adults. The younger boys don't know enough, and by having the adults continue to be around they get the message that their affectionate behavior is either condoned or learned as "normal" --- all leaders are role models. What do we do? It is my contention that the situation scares away families from joining and keeps other adults from volunteering because they can't ignore it with a working relationship. The troop gets weaker as time marches on.

[evmori]

Get you CO involved in this. It sounds like it's time to revoke their membership. Not living according to the Scout Law & Oath.

[Billiken]

Are we to assume that these two are married (to other people)?

If yes, then they've got to go (regardless of thier level of participation and dedication to the program).

[riverwalk]

We don't even have to be concerned with our own personal feelings here. If they've been through YPT they know better. If they haven't, shame on somebody. The Committee should address this before the CO, because many CO's leave all things to Committee and don't know much about the Program they sponsor. If they do that's great.

If the Committee (after trying to educate the two Leaders) can't/won't act, the DE needs to.

I can promise you they can be prohibited from being involved in Scouting, if the Council has to act. So stop it early if these two will take the hint. It's their business who they want to become friends with. But like tobacco, there are things we do not let the Youth see in our Programs.

[wagionvigil]

Something like this happened in my council a while back. As soon as the CE heard the letters were in the Mail. You are no longer a registered member of the BSA and are non longer welcomed at any scout activities or functions.

[mom4-2eaglescouts]

What is CO stand for? How about YPT?

These two are not married to each other, but to other spouses. One got divorced during this period.

[wagionvigil]

CO Charter Organization ALso you best have all your ducks in a row before ever accusing someone. It can caopme back and bite you hard.

[joat]

The chartered org can relieve any adult leader at any time and for any reason. There's no repercussions other than hard feelings.

[Mrw]

YPT is youth protection training.

We had a similar situation in the Cub pack years ago. The end result was two divorces and a Webelos patrol that was added to mine for lack of other leadership.

Being younger, the boys that were not in either of those families were none the wiser, but it really does set a bad example. And the boys in the troop are older and will definitely know if there is something not right about the relationship.

At least one, and preferably both of those leaders should step down.

[Nuts4Scouts]

I'm all for getting the Charter Org Rep involved if 2 leaders are acting improperly in front of the youth.

However -

Both parties are productive (do a lot for the troop) but basically deny the relationship.

If the parties involved state there is no relationship, than it sounds to me like this could be gossip.

They have been advised to knock off at least the appearance of impropriety

What exactly are they doing that is improper?

however that has continued although a lesser degree

What exactly are they still doing that is improper?

The older boys who know about it do not respect these adults

If the adults say there is no relationship, how do the older boys know anything about it? Are they perhaps picking up on the attitudes of the other adults which have been fostered by possible gossip?

It is my contention that the situation scares away families from joining and keeps other adults from volunteering

Yes, gossip can do that.

These two are not married to each other, but to other spouses. One got divorced during this period.

Just because one of them got divorced does not prove that it was a relationship between the 2 leaders which caused it. Divorce is a very personal, emotional, & private thing and should not be fodder for Troop gossip.

I will go out on a limb here and guess that you are a friend of the divorced spouse. If that is the case, you might be allowing your personal feelings to influence you here.

It sounds like the Charter Org and the Troop Committee are not opposed to these two leaders or they would have taken more direct action long ago.

Yes, the Charter Org (CO) can revoke unit membership at any time, for any reason, but a CO is usually very careful to have a solid reason behind that kind of action.

As Wagionvigil stated, you better have your ducks in row, and have solid evidence about improper behavior or you might find yourself in court in a civil suit for spreading slander.

[mom4-2eaglescouts]

No, I am not a friend of the divorced spouse. I barely know them.
No, I have not "gossiped" but I am disturbed by what the boys see and hear.
I have myself observed public display of affection and body language that is not of the same kind between two colleagues. This has attracted furrowed brows by those who also see at scout outings so I am not "reading" into things here or making any assumptions based on gossip. It is simply inappropriate. One knows when a friendly hug is not that type. This has been brought to their attention but it still continues.
The boys, I am not at liberty to tell you the method, did hear inappropriate words of very personal private affection towards each other. This is what has shook up these boys. Who knows about actual acts, I don't think its necessary to know that. Yes, denials took place when confronted by troop officials, yes, less hand-holding and such, but this affection has not stopped completely. Listen, I have very close male friends who I have had professional relationships with. Those relationships are respectful.
There is more, just not a topic of this thread. This should not happen nor continue in a scout troop. I think I got the answers I need.

[cballman]

My opinion if the troop leadership didnt do anything about this. which would mean the scoutmaster, committie chariman, and the chartered org. rep. then I would go straight to the District Exe. then if he dont want anything to do with it then I would go the Council Executive. these leaders should not be anywhere near kids with anything like that going on. they might be the best leaders but as an adult I would prefer to not have any kids see or hear what is going on. Leaders need to set the example for the youth of today so that the morals and scouting tradition lives on forever. if you have any questions feel free to email me and I will help guide you with this problem

[riverwalk]

mom4, just follow all the recommendations here. First these leaders should be reminded to follow BSA expectations; not working, then Committee. Too many fail to recognize the role of Committee in various ways. Then the CO can be consulted, and then a DE or DD. Any registered leader trained, knows all the above. Anyone not yet wearing that strip, needs to get trained.

You're reaching out for guidance rather than looking the other way. You're doing what others should do. But just like in work conditions, anytime one goes too high in the food chain, lower people have lost their ability to resolve it at the lower levels. Other than what goes directly to the Scout Executive, use these other avenues. If you have already, then dump these two before an impropriety turns into a scandal, or worse, a fight! Yep, it happens anytime humans are nearby. Promise.

[Chief J]

If the outward display of affection is not acceptable, and these individuals have been trained or even asked to act appropriately and they choose not to, then the chartered organization needs to get involved and ask these folks to not come around their organization anymore.

This would apply whomever they are married to. We do not let husband/wife teams carry on when they are representing scouting just as we would not let a scout or scouter carry on with a boyfriend/girlfriend.

Chartered Organizations have the power and ability to revoke a Scouter from their organization. The rule of thumb is he who hires you can also fire you. I believe Chapter 9 of the Unit Commissioner's Field Book addresses this issue.

Remember, the person(s) may appear to be too important to let go, but if you make the leap of faith you may find many suitable replacements waiting in the wings who will more than make up for the member who is seperated.

I do agree that before seperating, you talk to the individuals and inform them of their shortcomings and what is acceptable behavior. If they choose to ignore you, then you ask to have them removed.

Chief J

[Quailman]

I hope this issue gets resolved in a way that is beneficial to all parties. They should follow the example that Mrs. Quailman and I set. We carefully avoid intimate contact at all times, whether there are scouts present or not. We've been married for 17 years, so it's easy.

Come to think of it, she's never been to a scout function other than courts of honor.