Discipline for the leaders' kids

[WifeofEagle]

We have discipline issues surrounding our Scoutmaster's boys. They have no respect for authority (youth or adult) and are so disrespectful that we have had several leaders refuse to go on outings if his sons are going to be present.
The SM refuses to take any displine action with his boys at all on outings and yet his sons refuse to perform their responsibilities outlined on the duty rosters or at the request of the SPL or Adult leadership (yes, one time it was a safety issue running with an open knife).
The SM says his sons are more harshly reprimanded than any other scout, but his sons are the most non-Scout-behaving kids in our troop.
They do not live up to the Scout Oath and Law most of the time.
Do we just need to find a replacement SM?

[RWSmith]

Discretely and respectfully, take your concerns to the following, in the order listed, until you get results:

• Committee Chairman;
• Chartered Org. Rep.;
• Unit Commissioner; and last, but not least,
• Transfer to another Troop

That last one may not seem fair, or you may not want to have to "seemingly" go through the trouble; but, I can assure you, more than anything else, if nobody's willing to step up and deal with the situation, when more than a couple of parents start pulling their kids out of a troop because of a problem than remains unaddressed, those who are responsible will have to take action because the problem will become "real" to them.

[evmori]

Sounds like when BOR time comes, these Scouts could be told "nope, you are lacking in Scout Spirit" Here's what you need to do to pass the next time.

[mt_goodrich]

I would take RWSmith's approach.

I know from experience as a youth that this can bring a program down. Younger Scouts see this and may feel they don't need to do the things they are supposed to do if the SM's sons aren't doing what they are assigned to do.

Good luck!

[RWSmith]

Sounds like when BOR time comes, these Scouts could be told "nope, you are lacking in Scout Spirit" Here's what you need to do to pass the next time.

Yes, a BOR could, but should NOT EVER--not for that purpose, nor in that manner. (See supplemental modules on SMCs and BORs at http://www.Scouting.org.) The boys are not the problem, here... the Scoutmaster is the problem. The fact that the SM is also the parent is not inconscequential; even so, it's the adults' problem and it needs to be handled among the adults... I can see no justification for punishing Scouts when it's the adult(s) who is(are) misbehaving. If Scoutmaster "Daddy" can't find a "balance", then he either needs to step aside as the SM, or he and his boys can join separate Troops.

[evmori]

Sounds like when BOR time comes, these Scouts could be told "nope, you are lacking in Scout Spirit" Here's what you need to do to pass the next time.

Yes, a BOR could, but should NOT EVER--not for that purpose, nor in that manner. (See supplemental modules on SMCs and BORs at http://www.Scouting.org.) The boys are not the problem, here... the Scoutmaster is the problem. The fact that the SM is also the parent is not inconscequential; even so, it's the adults' problem and it needs to be handled among the adults... I can see no justification for punishing Scouts when it's the adult(s) who is(are) misbehaving. If Scoutmaster "Daddy" can't find a "balance", then he either needs to step aside as the SM, or he and his boys can join separate Troops.

These Scouts are not displaying Scout Spirit! Why makes no difference. Yes the SM is at fault and so are the Scouts. Not holding the Scouts accountable is the same as saying what they are doing is OK.

[FrankJ]

I see two issues:

1) Is the SM's behavoir, which should be handled as RWSmith describes.

2) The scout behavior which can be handled in BOR called for that purpose & not for advancement. The BOR should focus on correcting the problem & not as punishment.

[Chief J]

I see two issues:

1) Is the SM's behavoir, which should be handled as RWSmith describes.

2) The scout behavior which can be handled in BOR called for that purpose & not for advancement. The BOR should focus on correcting the problem & not as punishment.

I agree, there are two problems. Both the adult and the kids are at fault. I also agree with these recomendations. Both the adult and the kids need to be counseled in this situation.

I do have a question however, and perhaps I missed this in the earlier posts, why is it only the SM's responsibility to correct these Scouts? Every Troop function should have at a minimum two-deep leadership, and why is the other leader or leaders stepping up to the task?

Best Regards,
Chief J

[Mrw]

My guess as to why it is a problem with both the SM and his kids is that the boys don't face consequences from their fathert, and so they don't respect anyone else's authority. After all, their dad is in charge and if he won't say anything, why should they obey some other person - adult or boy leaders.

Our SM at times has stepped back to let someone else talk to his kid about behavior, but always with the understanding that he wanted his boy to know that it was not JUST dad who was wanting to discipline him, but the other adult leaders also thought he needed it.

[joat]

The time to address youth behavior issues is when it occurs. It's hardly effective to tolerate bullying or disrespect week-to-week and expect to correct it weeks or months later at a board of review.

[Lynda J]

We have this problem in our troop with the SM's oldes son. Rude not only to his parents but to others. There are times I want to choke him. One thing has happened though. He keeps running for SPL. For the past 3 years. But has not been elected. The sad thing is that he doesn't see that the main reason is that his idea of leadership is standing up and screaming at everyone. I have tried to talk to him but haven't gotten any where. The sad thing is that overall he isn't a bad kid.

But I agree with Ed. We have taught our kids over the past several years that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. That is is someone else's fault. THeir parents didn't raise them right. THeir school doesn't have a good teaching program. What about making them take responsibility for their own actions and realize that the only one that is responsible for them is THEM. If one of us misbehaves at work we are the ones that are held responsible. What is different is making kids be responsible.

[ASM-142]

Sounds like when BOR time comes, these Scouts could be told "nope, you are lacking in Scout Spirit" Here's what you need to do to pass the next time.

By time a scout gets to a BOR for advancement Scout Spirit is already signed off and can not be questioned. However, the committee should call for a non-advancement BOR to discuss the Scouts behavior.

At the same time the SM should be called before the committee to discuss his/her behavior

[WifeofEagle]

Your input has been beneficial in SO many ways. First, since I posed this question we held a displinary review with the scout. We asked him to site how he missed the mark in obeying each of the scout laws on the last outing (which was the worst) and to also list 2 ways to commit to each law on his future scouting time with our troop.
You were right when you said it wasn't the boy's real problem.
His Dad (SM) was the one that kept coming up with excuses for his son's behavior which included blaming the other leader.

The two-deep issue is what has me concerned.

If the SM doesn't want to be involved with his son's discipline on an outing or at any troop function and tends to blame the other adult, does that mean that we really need at least 3 adults going on an outing to cover and be the "2nd" adult when the SMs sons' need discipline?

[Mrw]

Well meeting with the boy was a very good first step, but the Committee still needs to talk to the SM and have him understand that his boy's behavior is out of Line. And that if it continues, the troop is going to lose boys to somewhere where there is better control.

[WifeofEagle]

Excellent point! That is exactly what I'm concerned about! We're very proud of our troop and the reputation it has had up to this point. We're very large (I hate that, but it is what it is) but still have a great reputation of having quality scouts and an extremely high-quality scouting program. That is exactly why this situation has me so concerned. My oldest son earned his Eagle out of this troop. I've invested 8 years with this troop and don't want to see it ruined. It's just so hard in this suburban area to find men willing to dedicate the time it takes to be SM.

[FrankJ]

If the SM doesn't want to be involved with his son's discipline on an outing or at any troop function and tends to blame the other adult, does that mean that we really need at least 3 adults going on an outing to cover and be the "2nd" adult when the SMs sons' need discipline?

Discipline on a scouting level should be by some one other than a parent. It is very difficult to get rid of the parent child dynamics so the scout generally gets more from the program when a non-parent is providing adult guidance. The 2nd adult can provide the discipline without violating youth protection as long they are in site of others.

As for back country trips, 2 adults is the minimum. The recommendation is 3.

If the SM is otherwise doing a good job with the troop & understands the principles, this is not something I would seek a replacement for. Talking & finding a solution is better. After all we are being watched. What we do means more than what we say.

[Nuts4Scouts]

It's just so hard in this suburban area to find men willing to dedicate the time it takes to be SM.

Which is why you should not limit yourself to considering only men.

Look for the best candidate. The one your committee feels will best follow the aims and methods of the BSA.

Simply settling for a warm body is never a good idea, no matter what the reasons.

[Chief J]

I also want to weigh in again, sounds like a very positive first step by talking with the youth involved. Now you need to talk to the SM. I agree with comments above, if this is the issue and he is otherwise performing his job, then focus on this issue and come to an understanding that his son is a disruption and his perception is hurting the Troop.

In our Troop, I allow the ASM's the right to correct all unacceptable behaviors and I will support them in this effort, especially if it includes my son. Generally, one of the ASM's "looks after" my son, and I do the same for his son, that way we deal with leader's addressing the situation, and not parent's. We have found this works well for us as it diffuses alot of emotions between the leaders.

Hopefully a mentoring session with your SM will be the final piece needed to fix the situation,
Chief J

[mt_goodrich]

Excellent suggestion about you each keeping an eye on each other's sons and stepping in if there is a problem.

[ASM-142]

This is exactly how my troop has always worked since I have been involved.