Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Administering the troop, solving problems, building on success, and using key program elements like the Patrol Method.

Moderators: Site Admin, Moderators

Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby Billiken » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:11 pm

Our troop has some old and never-used camping equipment. It's not junk, it's just that we never use it.
(We have newer "stuff" that we use when camping.)

At a recent Troop Committee meeting the Committee agreed that we should give the unused equipment to a start-up troop or a troop that's less fortunate (e.g. like an inner city unit).
Our Chartered Org Rep agreed to the decision.

Now we have a Committee Member, not present when the decision was made, saying that we can't give the stuff away.
It belongs to the (his) church (the Chartering Org.)
Frankly, he's furious about the decision.

The troop paid for the equipment (the Chartering Org has never given us any funds, just a place to meet).

Can we give the stuff away?????
"The only problem with Boy Scouts is, there aren't enough of them." Will Rogers
Billiken
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 937
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland Council

Postby Mrw » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:18 pm

Absolutely you can give stuff away.

Our troop has done this when we had stuff that someone else could use better than we could.

Odds are that if the Charter Org Rep gives approval from the church to give it away, then this guy will not have a leg to stand on.

It would then fall under both a scout being helpful and the church supporting mission work.

What does this guy think the church is actually going to do with unused camping equipment anyways?
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
Mrw
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:49 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland

Postby wagionvigil » Sat Aug 04, 2007 7:24 pm

I agree it can be given away BUT it does belong to the CO
NER Area 4 COPE/Climbing Chairman
NE Area 4 Venturing Chairman
"If You Ain't a Bear, You're a Meal!"
wagionvigil
Counselor
 
Posts: 5457
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:01 am
Location: Westmoreland-Fayette Council BSA

Postby Mrw » Sun Aug 05, 2007 8:50 am

In most cases, the CO will not want to be involved in purchasing, using, storing or disposal of scout equipment.

Would this same guy get upset if you threw away broken or worn out stuff because it belonged to HIS church too?
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
Mrw
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1307
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:49 pm
Location: Greater Cleveland

Postby Nuts4Scouts » Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:06 am

Yes, the camping equipment all belongs to the Charter Organization.

However, in this case the CO has, thru it's COR, agreed to givinging away the items.

If you want to make sure that all of your bases are covered, ask your COR to run the decision past the head of your CO. I doubt that a church would have an objection to helping out the less fortunate.
Nuts4Scouts
Eagle
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:17 am
Location: Des Plaines Valley

CO

Postby riverwalk » Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:48 pm

Great story of all parties connecting as they should, and still helping others. Sounds so good it ought to be in Scouting somewhere. :wink:
riverwalk
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 945
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:45 pm
Location: Circle Ten Council, North Central Texas

Postby jr56 » Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:34 pm

Yes, the CO owns the equipment, but since the COR has given his blessing on this, you have every right to give the equipment away. Nice of you to consider helping out a fellow troop.
jr56
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 672
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:15 am
Location: Glacier's Edge Council, WI

Postby ASM-142 » Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:50 am

As indicated the CO owns all the equipment - they also own all money in any troop accounts. Most CO will not have aproblem with donating equipment but permission should be asked since they may have other uses for the equipment
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
ASM-142
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 827
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 10:24 am
Location: Monmouth Council, New Jersey

Postby Chief J » Mon Aug 06, 2007 8:56 am

I will add my concurrence to this thread. The CO owns the troop, and all of its belongings, equipment, money, etc.

I will also agree that the CO representation in the troop belongs to the COR, that is why he should be involved in the unit. If he has given his blessing, then I would agree that the CO has given their blessing.

If an individual of the CO has a problem with the decision, that is for the CO and the COR and this individual to work out.

As upset as this individual may be, it sounds like the unit has all the correct approvals and this is just a case of sour grapes.

Best Regards,
Chief J
Chief J
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:01 am
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Council

Postby evmori » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:39 am

Our Chartered Org Rep agreed to the decision.

Sounds like this guy didn't pay attention when the Chartered Org Rep gave his OK.
Ed Mori
1 Peter 4:10
evmori
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1109
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Greater Pittsburgh Pittsburgh, PA

Property In Trust

Postby ThunderingWind » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:47 am

There are units that have property held in trusts for use until conditions set by the trusts stop the use.

A local (Indianapolis area) VFD "gave" a trailer to a troop to use as long as there is a troop, the Troop provides maintainance and there is a registered Troop parent that has a vehicle rated to tow it.

It is even painted to say "Donated By xxx VFD."
ThunderingWind
Gold Palm
 
Posts: 1081
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:16 pm
Location: longer affiliated with the BSA

Postby Quailman » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:55 am

How very unscoutlike this guy is being. I am not a boy scout, just a registered adult leader, but I try to live by the scouting principles. I just don't see this guy's point in keeping the equipment on a shelf while other scouts could benefit from having it. It's getting obsolete or rusty or just passé.

If he knows of another need in the church (youth group, etc.) that the COR is not aware of, then they should get together to discuss it. Otherwise, it sounds like a done deal and this guy really has no say in the matter.
Quailman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:52 am
Location: Sam Houston Area Council, Spring, TX

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby mhjacobson » Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:36 pm

After reviewing the various manuals and guides on the issue, I can give you the skinny on the issue (I had a longer report, but since I do not speed key, I was timedoff the forum and lost all of my message.

From the Cubmasters Handbook, p 11-4

"Ownership of assets. The unit committee is the custodian of all unit funds, with supervision and adviosement from the chartered organization and local council.

From the Scoutmaster's Handbook, p 162

"Every scout troop, varsity scout team, venturing crew, and cub scout pack is operated by an organization granted a charter by the Natinal Council of the Boy SCouts of America. With this franchise, the chartered organization adopts Scouting as its youth program.

The section on dues and records is silent regarding both the Committee and the Chartered Organization. The one section that targets responsibilities says (p168) "Every troop should have a checking account at a local bank. Most troops use two signatures for drawing checks, although scoutmasters are often provided with a pe5tty cash fund to make small purchases as needs arise. The troop treasurere monitors the troop's cash flow and pays all troop bills by check."

More information is provided in the Troop Committee Guidebook (I have an internet version so the page numbers may be slightly off)

p7. "You Troop is 'owned' by a Chartered Organization. It receives a national charter which must be renewed yearly top use the Scouting Program, as part of its youth work. These groups which have goals compatable with those of the Boy Scouts of America, include religious bodies, educational, civic, fraternal, business, labor, governmental bodies, and professional organizations.

"Each chartered organization using the Scouting program provides a meeting place, selects a SCoutmaster, appoints a troop committee of at least three adults, and choses a Chartered Organization Representative . . ." No mention of fiscal responsibilities of the Chartered Organization are made in this manual, nor in any others.

In Chapter 4 -- Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities (p13 of hte Troop Committee Guide), the role of the committee is listed:

"The troop committee is the troop's board of directors. But you ask "what does the troop committee do?" The troop committee does the following:

*Ensures that quality adult leadership . . . (items not related to this discussion are omitted)
*is responsible for finacnes, adequate funds, and disbursements in line with the approved budget plat
*Obtains, maintains, and properly cares for troop property . . ."

Further on the Manual deals tje duties of the Treasuer (Finance/Records): (p15)
*Handle all triip funds. Pay bills on the recommendation of the SCoutmaster and authorization of the troop committee
*Maintain checking and savings accounts
*Train and supervise the troop scibe in record keeping
*Keep adequate records in the Troop/Team Record book
*Supervise the camp savings plan
*Lead in the preparation of the annual troop budget
*Lead the Friends of Scouting campaign
*Report to the troop at each meeting
*Keep adequate records of expenses."

I have pulled sections from the Commissioners Guide which support the above statements.

TO SUMMARIZE FOR THOSE WHOSE EYES HAVE NOT FALLEN OUT OF THEIR SOCKETS FROM READING ALL OF THIS:

YES, the Chartered Organization owns the UNIT, but YES the troop is responsible for the management of the troop finances and materials. AND yes, the troop should be telling the Chartered Organization what it is doing with IT's money and IT's equipment (look at it as if the troop is a wholely owned corporation with its own board of directors).

Now, let me take off my lawyer hat (it was a long day at the office and I have a case to prepare for) and put back on my Smokey-the-Bear hat.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby pipestone1991 » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:15 pm

The CO sponsers the troop and if they didn't but the equipment yes you can give it away.
Eagle ScoutGold Palm2007
Philmont 801-E2 2006
pipestone1991
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 840
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:45 am
Location: Buckeye Council

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby kwildman » Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:59 pm

The CO owns all of the assests of the troop. If the decide to pull the charter tomorrow, all funds and equipment are the property of the CO. I think this is the case of one individual not being happy. If the COR agreed then there is no issue.

We have given away pack and troop equipment to other units including tens, pinewood derby track, etc. Our CO was very supportive of us helping out another unit.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby mhjacobson » Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:25 pm

Obviously you did not read my prior. The CO ownes the equipment but not the treasury. The unit is the custodian of both. Unless the CO has a problem with it, the troop can certainly divest of equipment at any time. If a troop disbands the treasury could be divideded up equally to the members.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby kwildman » Sun Jul 13, 2008 10:43 pm

I did read your prior post...

Unit members can not divide the treasury any more than they can decide to split the existing equipment. The charter organization holds the charter which means it is their Unit along with the assets. I believe the correct reference can be found in the "Charter and Bylaws of the BSA" which provides much more specific details on the charter and its relationship with the unit(s). I cant find my copy but I bet some SE can cite the applicable sections.

The scoutmasters guide and troop committee guides are references and not regulation. Those documents provide procedural guidance and as you stated do not speak explicitly to the ownership of assets. "Custodian" does not mean or imply ownership. The ability to use petty cash does not imply ownership. Yes the unit is like a wholly owned corporation with its own board of directors but they can only operate through the authority granted by the owner. If I own a company and chose to close a subsidiary company then they are out of luck...the acting directors and employees dont get to keep the assets.

If the original poster wants to follow up on this I would recommend reviewing the document I referenced or take the easy way out and call your council. That is what they are there for.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby mhjacobson » Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:05 pm

The manuals state explicity that it is the responsibility of the COR to "advise the units on the handling of finances." I did call the council and I was told, at first "YOu teach the COR Course and the Troop Committee Course, check the manuals." When I referred to the BSA POlicy manual, after hearing a shuffling of pages for a few minutes, I receive the quote (above). In essence, it seems while there is policy out there, there are also the manuals that are not just 'guidance' but restatements of 'policy.' Again, I have said that from all of the manuals and guides out there, the CO owns the equipment, and the manuals are nebulous about the cash. However, whatever the COR says regarding the finances seems to be the law. I'll bet that the majority of the units out there are working under the 'we raised the money and it is ours' philosophy. ID the COR does not disabuse the unit of that philosophy, and allows the unit to operate under that philosophy, that is the way that it will be.

Perhaps we have to starting thinking of the COR as having the same discretation as a MB counselor: The person who interprets the requirements under which we will function.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
mhjacobson
Eagle
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:39 pm
Location: DesPlaines Valley Council - Illinois

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby kwildman » Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:19 pm

i think we are getting closer to agreeing. 8)

The COR course tells the COR how they operate same for the TC course. Nothing in these manuals denies ownership of finances to the CO. In our unit, we raised 100% of our treasury. All of the equipment was purchased through our treasury by money we raised. We agree the CO owns the equipment. You can follow where i am going with this.

The CO, as the owner of the unit, has the right to be as involved as they want with the financials. Just because the CO choses not to be involved in decisions, etc. does not mean that they give up their rights or claim as owner. If i let you borrow my car whenever you want because I never use it and you spend time and money in making it nicer by tuning it up, filling in the dents, painting, etc. does not make it your car should i decide not to let you use it at a later time.

This really shouldn't be an issue that comes up too often.
No one can pass through life, any more than he can pass through a bit of country, without leaving tracks behind, and those tracks may often be helpful to those coming after him in finding their way. - Lord Baden-Powell
kwildman
Bronze Palm
 
Posts: 612
Joined: Tue May 06, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Simon Kenton Council

Re: Troop Equipment - Ownership?????

Postby 9009scoutmaster » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Our troop and pack just went through this process when our unit re-chartered in Feb. 08. We changed charter organizations from one church to another church. Our former charter organization allowed the troop and pack to keep all money the unit’s bank account and unit’s equipment except for the troop trailer. At this time we still have possession of trailer. We are in the process of working out a deal where unit will be able to retain ownership of old trailer by providing new trailer for old charter organization
1978 Eagle Scout
Former SM
GHL District Chattahoochee Council
SR-668
BEAVERS BUILD
9009scoutmaster
Life
 
Posts: 159
Joined: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:07 pm
Location: Alabama


Return to Troop Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests