Why Rush?

[wagionvigil]

I had 26 LDS Scouts at the Cave Yesterday from 3 different units. WE Happened to discuss program while I was rappelling them off the cliff and yes they use it as their youth program But with this group the leaders have been involved for several years. One thing we did discuss and they are 100% for was a mandatory move to Venturing at 15 or age 14 if First class or above and the removal of the term " Venture" from the " Boy Scout" Program.

[evmori]

Scouting to the LDS faith is their youth program run the way they want to run it which isn't necessarily the way the BSA intended the program to be run.

FOUL!!!

Yes, the LDS folks do have slight variations on their program from the standard BSA format, but they still have to follow the same rules for advancements.

The reason for their younger Eagles is because they put a greater emphasis on the basic Scouting program in the 11-13 y/o age group. The 14-18 y/o groups are sent into Varsity/Venturing with less emphasis on MBs, and subsequently rank advancement.

As for the training and tenure of their Scouters, this is something they've acknowledged and are supposedly working on.

No foul. Fact. If not, explain how an Eagle Scout never cooked in a dutch oven. Explain how an Eagle Scout doesn't know how many MB's he has earned. Wanna bet most of the requirements were "rubber stamped"!

[maricopasem]

Scouting to the LDS faith is their youth program run the way they want to run it which isn't necessarily the way the BSA intended the program to be run.

FOUL!!!

Yes, the LDS folks do have slight variations on their program from the standard BSA format, but they still have to follow the same rules for advancements.

The reason for their younger Eagles is because they put a greater emphasis on the basic Scouting program in the 11-13 y/o age group. The 14-18 y/o groups are sent into Varsity/Venturing with less emphasis on MBs, and subsequently rank advancement.

As for the training and tenure of their Scouters, this is something they've acknowledged and are supposedly working on.

No foul. Fact. If not, explain how an Eagle Scout never cooked in a dutch oven. Explain how an Eagle Scout doesn't know how many MB's he has earned. Wanna bet most of the requirements were "rubber stamped"!

Wow. That is one broad, ugly brush you're using to paint an entire religion. You may want to think twice before rushing to judgment and making comments like that. A Scout is supposed to be courteous.

Remember that this is one boy. Remember that the previous post was a second-hand recounting of what the boy supposedly said. Remember that some boys, even Scouts, can be rude and obnoxious. Perhaps this boy was just being sarcastic. And remember that there is no Dutch oven requirement to earn the Eagle Scout award. As hard as it may be to believe, there are many individuals who earned their Eagle and went on to live productive lives without ever having cooked in or eaten from a Dutch oven, myself included.

It's too bad that there is a misconception out there that the LDS Church runs a different program, because it's simply not true. The LDS Church uses the same requirements, fills out the same tour permits, attends the same training and Roundtable events, and abides by the same G2SS as everybody else. It's the same program for everybody.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

FOUL!!!

Yes, the LDS folks do have slight variations on their program from the standard BSA format, but they still have to follow the same rules for advancements.

The reason for their younger Eagles is because they put a greater emphasis on the basic Scouting program in the 11-13 y/o age group. The 14-18 y/o groups are sent into Varsity/Venturing with less emphasis on MBs, and subsequently rank advancement.

As for the training and tenure of their Scouters, this is something they've acknowledged and are supposedly working on.

It's too bad that there is a misconception out there that the LDS Church runs a different program, because it's simply not true. The LDS Church uses the same requirements, fills out the same tour permits, attends the same training and Roundtable events, and abides by the same G2SS as everybody else. It's the same program for everybody.

Misconception? The same program as BSA?

I have often wondered about the LDS program, as many threads have comments both pro and cons about the LDS program aliening with the BSA program – so I did a bit of research and found this useful web-site for LDS Scouting. http://www.ldsscouting.org/index.shtml

Similar yes, along the same lines yes, but different yes. The fact that younger boys are separated from older boys is a great difference. The fact that younger boys are expected to only camp 3 times a year is different. And at least this web-site, suggest that the experience is not at all boy-run.

[scoutaholic]

Scouting to the LDS faith is their youth program run the way they want to run it which isn't necessarily the way the BSA intended the program to be run.

FOUL!!!

Yes, the LDS folks do have slight variations on their program from the standard BSA format, but they still have to follow the same rules for advancements.

The reason for their younger Eagles is because they put a greater emphasis on the basic Scouting program in the 11-13 y/o age group. The 14-18 y/o groups are sent into Varsity/Venturing with less emphasis on MBs, and subsequently rank advancement.

As for the training and tenure of their Scouters, this is something they've acknowledged and are supposedly working on.

No foul. Fact. If not, explain how an Eagle Scout never cooked in a dutch oven. Explain how an Eagle Scout doesn't know how many MB's he has earned. Wanna bet most of the requirements were "rubber stamped"!

Yes FOUL! While it is true that scouting is the youth program adopted by the church, it is not a fact that the program is run 'the way they want to run it...'. We still acknowledge the same Aims and Methods of scouting. We still use the same advancement program and guidelines, the same G2SS, the same tour permits, etc, etc, etc. The basic differences are in grouping the boys by age-group (cubs 8-10, new scout patrol 11, boy scouts 12-13, varsity 14-15, venture 16-18), and fundraising rules (in many cases, we just don't fundraise, and the $$ comes from the CO).

I have known many scouts (regardless of religion) who vary in what they have done well, what they remember, and what experiences they have had.

Dutch oven cooking is not a requirement of any scouting that I am aware of. Cooking MB is not required, and dutch oven isn't in there either. There are plenty of ways to cook outdoors that will satisfy the rank requirements without having experience with a dutch oven.

I never knew how many MBs I had either. The number just wasn't important to me. I know, because I went back and looked years later, that there are 24 MBs on my sash. That number is not indicative of how hard I worked, nor how many I earned. It is simply the number for which paperwork was processed and the badge was awarded. The number that I earned is at least twice that.

Unfortunately, there are leaders (both LDS and non-LDS) with a 'rubber stamp'. I've not seen any evidence that LDS Eagles as a whole are any more or less worthy of the award than are non-LDS Eagles.

[WeeWillie]

Cochise District is LDS country. Half the units and Scouts are LDS. I am not.

LDS Scouting is aligned with their religious roles and responsibilities. 11 year olds are organized as a separate patrol and are limited in some of the activities that non-LDS Scouts are allowed. (For example, only 3 camping trips for TCFY) Older Scouts are moved to Ventures in order for them to meet their responsibilities within the LDS Priesthood.

Because Scouts is their male youth program they have the full resources of their stake and ward for leaders, committee members, and MBCs. Although SMs are often in their 20’s (and usually Eagle Scouts themselves) the COR and CC are older. I’ve seen three generations of adults leaders in the same unit. If you see an adult leader, rest assured, you see a “Trained” patch under their POR badge.

LDS units have problems just as non-LDS units do, but it is my experience that they take Scouting very seriously I have never seen a dfficient LDS Eagle Scout, but I have seen a non-LDS Eagle who could not tie a square knot and another who could not tie a round turn and two half hitch

I never cooked using a Dutch oven either. My troop used reflector ovens.

[Wapiti]

I didn't mean in my previous post anything about the Mormon religion, just that their troops are operated differently than most troops that are not chartered by LDS stakes.

At our council summer camp, the LDS troops have 1 week dedicated to themselves. All MB counselors and staff clear out of the reservation and it's operated solely by LDS.

I also might add that in the council that I grew up in (Inland NW Council), there are more Mormon chartered troops than any other by far; which is a great credit to them.

[evmori]

When ya start justifying stuff because you never knew how many MB's you had or the fact dutch oven cooking isn't a requirement ya might wanna take a closer look at the program you are running. This kid is 14! He just earned Eagle! He should at least know he earned 21 MB's!

Read the rest of the posts, scoutaholic. Many agree with me. I am not saying anything bad about the Mormon religion. Just don't like the way they use the Scouting program.

[WeeWillie]

The 2001 Catalina Council Camporee was scheduled for Oct at Fort Huachuca. When 9-11 ocurred Fort Huachuca had to cancel their sponsorship At at Round Table the next week word, was put out that the camporee would have to be cancelled. Several of the LDS wards got together and found a new site. Their bishops got together and assigned each of their stakes to put together the camporee games. All this took place in less than a month and the camporee was held as scheduled.

In May we had to cancel our float trip because of low water. At Round Table I inquired about Climb On Safely so we could schedule an alternate trip to a climbing gym in Tucson. Another SM overheard my conversation and volunteered to give our adults the training so we could go. He was a LDS SM and a certified BSA climbing instructor.

Three weeks ago at Grand Canyon Council, Camp Geronimo there was an adult staff shortage. The Program Director, an LDS bishop, called his son-in-law and three days later he was our troop's commissioner.

I just got back from Round Table held at a local LDS Church.

LDS may use Scouting, but it is my experience that they give far more than they receive.

[wagionvigil]

This is one scout and this is something you will find in ALL COUNCILS all over the country. It is a shame but it happens. We just need tomake sure our boys are not one of them.

[Quailman]

I just got back from Round Table held at a local LDS Church.

Round tables in our district were held in a LDS church until two years ago, when the attendance got to be too much for it to handle. Now it's held in a larger LDS church.

[ronin718]

When ya start justifying stuff because you never knew how many MB's you had or the fact dutch oven cooking isn't a requirement ya might wanna take a closer look at the program you are running. This kid is 14! He just earned Eagle! He should at least know he earned 21 MB's!

Read the rest of the posts, scoutaholic. Many agree with me. I am not saying anything bad about the Mormon religion. Just don't like the way they use the Scouting program.

And when you start judging an Eagle based on whether or not they've done dutch oven cooking, you might wanna stop adding requirements to the rank.

Seems to me that evmori has some sour grapes towards the LDS Scouting program. Maybe some bad experiences or interactions with LDS Scouters. Like scoutaholic said, rubber-stamping occurs throughout Scouting, not just in the LDS program. Perhaps we should start discussing MB mills.

WeeWillie, I'm glad the LDS leaders in your area have both tenure and training. That's two of the T's the folks in Salt Lake are starting to push for in the LDS Scouting program. I wish it were true here in the DC area. We have an awful lot of untrained LDS leaders in our units, and the RT participation is pretty sad as well, at least in my district.

ICCCU makes an interesting observation regarding the boy-run nature of LDS troops. This same observation can be made outside the LDS program as well. Keep in mind that most LDS units draw from within their congregation, not the community, and thus can vary from 2-30+ boys, depending on the nature of their congregation. The tenure/training of the leaders will also play into the boy-run equation. If the leader doesn't know how to operate in a BR/BL environment, it won't happen.

Before we continue this bash, someone point us to a perfect unit, LDS or non-LDS. I'm listening.....

[evmori]

I don't add to the requirements! And a 14 year old Scout not knowing how many MB's he has earned and reading the rest of Wapiti's post it is apparent this Scout probably didn't "earn" much of his Eagle.

I have no beef with the LDS church. I do know, in most cases, they run their own version of the Scouting program.

There are no perfect units. Never will be. No one has ever stated their unit did everything 100% correctly!

[maricopasem]

I have no beef with the LDS church. I do know, in most cases, they run their own version of the Scouting program.

How do you know? What are the differences?

Is it because the boys are separated by age? That one doesn't hold water, especially when you read the thread about how different troops organize patrols. http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2145

Is it because they are perceived to be less boy-run? In principle that is absolutely untrue. In practice and application some do better than others. Perhaps we could have a discussion another time on the theological principles that undergird this issue.

What is it that makes the LDS less BSA than everyone else?

[evmori]

What is it that makes the LDS less BSA than everyone else?

No one has said they are less BSA than everyone else, just doing their own thing.

It seems LDS Scout units are run more according to their church rules & regs than the BSA's.

A direct quote from the LDS site listed earlier in this thread.

The scouting programs exist in the Church to support Aaronic Priesthood purposes.

[wagionvigil]

Enough!!

[ronin718]

Dang, WV, it was just starting to get fun.......

[wagionvigil]

Sorry! This is a Youth Friendly Forum

[RMM]

Well, how about those Yankees, will they make it to the playoffs?

[maricopasem]

I'm not trying to fan any flames. I'm just wondering about this statement:

It seems LDS Scout units are run more according to their church rules & regs than the BSA's.

I'm genuinely curious as to why it seems that LDS units are run differently. I have yet to hear an explanation or an observation on this that makes sense.

If LDS troops generally are doing something wrong, I would think a strong effort should be made to fix it. If it's a problem of misunderstanding and/or misinformation, I would think that as a fraternity of Scouts we would want to clear that up instead of perpetuate or ignore it.