Women make great leaders

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

Let me first state that if it weren't for many moms, the scouting program would be in trouble, at all levels! I am dealing with one situation that involved a female leader. I don't care what you think about women in leadership, I simply need clear thinking to handle this event...

I am the SM, one of my ASMs is female. At the last minute, a male-ASM cancelled to serve on a week-long trip with me. She was available and attended.

As we know, boys will be boys (wow! I hate that phrase). On this trip, things were said, comments were made, and language (at times) was not appropriate. As SM, I swiftly dealt with it each time I was aware of it, or heard about it.

Into the week, the ASM began "being a part" of the comments, etc. As a very strong personality, my condemnation and insistance that the behavior cease was ignored. I will quickly admit, I should have cancelled the activity right then and returned home, but I didn't.

Upon return, a parent contacted me and insisted that the ASM resign or they would take their "behavior" to the council level.

Although I support that demand, at what level should I be held responsible? I am of the opinion that I failed my scouts and their parents. Am I making a mistake in saying that I, too, should be held to this same demand of punishment?

I'm afraid this is rambling, but I'm very concerned about the outcome. My goal is the best possible program AND protection of every boy.

HELP!!!

[Mrw]

You talked around the issue so much without detailing the specifics here that I am not sure I understand.

If it were boys making inappropriate comments and she did not correct them or tell them to stop, that is poor leadership and she will never earn respect from the boys.

If she was in any way coming across as flirting with the boys, then she absolutely should not be working with boys. And as a troop leader, she should be asked to step down.

If you are asking should you step down as well as the ASM in question because you did not end the trip early due to others behaviors, I would say that is more of a hindsight is 20:20 situation and you have learned from it.

Would the disruption to the troop and program from both of you resigning at once be a fair and appropriate consequence?

[jr56]

Yes, I don't understand what you mean either. Were the boys making inappropriate comments at her? Or was it the other way around. Hard to tell from your post.

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

ASM did not stop the boys in some of their comments, then began making the same comments to them, even with the use of language.

My attempts to cease the activity was ignored by her, then of course by the boys. I've always had a great influence over the scouts, and (fortunately) have a great deal of respect from them. Not having the support of my 2nd adult led them to "simply be boys."

Now (as of tonight) she simply believes that there are parents who are "out to get her" because she is a woman, not recognizing the inapproriateness of her behavior.

As to the "both stepping down" issue, I took control of this troop almost 4 years ago on the sudden resignation of the SM. Within days, I had parents contacting me asking if as SM, would I "end the abusive behavior" of the older scouts toward the younger ones!

WOW - It's been a hornet's nest all along!!!

[riverwalk]

Where's the Committee on this? True it's hard to determine what the situation is without clarification, but either way the Unit needs to get back to a Scouting spirit really quick.

[ASM-142]

this needs to be brought to the committee especially since this ASM does not believe she did anything wrong.

for the parents demanding that she be removed let them know that the incident is being reviewed by the committee. at the same time you can ask for additional volunteers - especially when camping

[Chief J]

Agree with many of the above posts, if the boys directed comments at her, and she did not correct the situation, she will never earn the respect of the youth.

If she engaged in or her actions or comments were inappropriate, and she does not beleive that she has acted innapropriately, then this needs to be reviewed by the Committee and most likely the Chartered Organization (or at least the COR). It should be their decision whether she be removed from the program or not. That is not to say that you will not have any input into the decision, but the decision should ultimately be theirs.

Finally, as for you stepping down, if you have learned from this and are taking steps to correct, and are taking steps to ensure this will not happen again, then I am not certain you should step aside, however, if you have concerns, perhaps you should discuss this also with the COR and or your committee for guidance.

As for adult leadership on outings, seek assistance from others to help. It is not necessary for only registered leaders to be the adult leadership, parents can and should be enlisted to assist. Encourage the parents of your biggest problem children to come and help out so they can see just how their model children really do behave.

Best Regards,
Chief J

[Nuts4Scouts]

OK, from what I read these boys were making "inappropriate comments" (we don't know what kind or directed at who) from the get go, and that despite your efforts to stop them, these comments continued all week long.

Eventually (possibly, in an unfortunate effort to bond with the boys, because it became obvious the boys were NOT going to stop) your ASM started chiming in with the boys and ignoring you.

Now you want the ASM to resign and are considering the same for yourself.

Has anything been done with the BOYS to address THEIR bad behavior? Or are they OK because they are just "boys being boys" who were corrupted by an ASM?

Has this ASM ever acted inappropriately in the past? How well does she usually interact with the boys? Has she ever gone camping with you before?

I think that this needs to be addressed by your CC, COR, ASM and yourself. Sit down and talk about the trip, what went wrong and how to fix it. The "fixing" should not only be done at the adult level. These boys were acting inappropriately from the very beginning of the trip, even with out the ASM's input.

I think there is enough blame to go around to everyone and resigning should not even be on the table, for anyone. However, since we really don't know what went on, that decision is up to your COR.

[wagionvigil]

We had a teacher in the district I taught in try to show a young man that what he said to another young man was wrong by using the same language. Tommy,What if I called You a**? She was suspended without pay for 6 months. SAme thing happened in a neighboring school district last year Forced a really good teacher to take early retirement. This all being said I would have her explain her actions which the above two examples were not given the chance to do. Then have the Troop Committee and the CO make the call. You as the sm Did no wrong you tried but were overshadowed by your ASM.

[jr56]

I agree with the above posts, you did the best you could. Have the committee review the situation and make the call. Since she does not recognize the inappropriatness of her actions, I would lean toward having the COR asking her to step down.

[scouter01]

on the boys actions i don't know how severe it was, but Boys will be boys.

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

I will meet with parents tomorrow with ASM. She has come to recognize that her "involvement" in the language, etc was wrong and wishes to apologize.

I'm not ready to call for her resignation. At this time, because of lack of CO & TC involvement, I have (almost) ultimate say as to what happens. The parents have the utmost trust in my decisions, which puts me in a very awkward position.

My plan is to see if this group still has faith in me as SM. If so, I will request that my decision and choice of support of the ASM be accepted, then ask the ASM to be reassigned as a member who helps form a properly functioning Troop Committee.

As to the boys' behavior, THEY MET TOGETHER last night and discussed how ashamed they were in themselve and what they needed to do to be better scouts and improve their behavior in the future! I'm very proud of them.

I'll make another post by week's end of the outcome. Sorry for lack of details, I know it make the discussion difficult...THANKS~

[ASM-142]

.. ask the ASM to be reassigned as a member who helps form a properly functioning Troop Committee.

Why would an ASM have anything do with getting a committee functioning?

[Mrw]

Having the ASM recruit and organize a committee that is not currently functioning is a good way to keep this adult involved, but to put some distance, at least temporarily between the groups with the recent disagreement.

In theory, running a committee is the job of the CC, but if it isn't happening that way then why not an ASM as a driving force to help put things back in order. Someone has to do it!

[Troop173Scoutmaster]

Having the ASM recruit and organize a committee that is not currently functioning is a good way to keep this adult involved, but to put some distance, at least temporarily between the groups with the recent disagreement.

In theory, running a committee is the job of the CC, but if it isn't happening that way then why not an ASM as a driving force to help put things back in order. Someone has to do it!

Writer has great insight. Let me briefly break down the "leadership" situation, then ask a question at the end:

Past SM dumped job on my desk one day (I was ASM for 2 months). Gladly took reigns with ONE active adult who volunteered to handle "administrative" issues and go on camps w/ her husband.

Over 6 months, dealt with issues of "abusive" behavior by some older scouts. (victory) Changed CO (former didn't have ANY CONTACT). New COR says, "I'll do anything you need me to do. Just let me know what that means."

Other parent takes on title of TCC and me as SM. We ask another parent to take on Treasury. (victory) New scout (Life) comes into troop from faultering troop, father and mother both registered w/ almost 10 years EACH of leadership. He becomes Fundraising Chair, she ASM. New group (14) crosses-over, 3 GREAT parents - another ASM, 1 organizes long-term financial goals (building a scout hut), and the other takes on Secretary.

We now have the beginnings of a good TC, but still "training" on the specifics.

Given past experiences as a child (rather dark), I am very protective of the adults who come into this troop. I treat each child as if he is my own son (who is set to complete Eagle at 13), and protect them as such.

To say I have any doubt about any registered leader in my troop would be insane!!!

Now to this week: the female ASM and I lead a one week hiking trip (male ASM backed out 48 hours prior - job issues). We had a great trip!!! except in the evenings around the campfire. ASM had lack of respect for my leadership, took part in foul language and jokes.

Returning home, I'm obviously upset. I "mention" to a parent to talk to their son about the trip and see how things went. (I knew the son would not lie about anything - great kid). He told the father of the actions of the ASM, and father now demands her removal from the troop.

Other parents simply say it was a case of bad judgement, and she should possibly be reassigned, but still has value to the troop.

I tend to agree with both! My trust in her has been shaken, but I greatly value her experience.

As to "funtioning TC and CO", both put complete trust in my leadership and decisions. They are doing so with this situation.

I meet TONIGHT with this parent group (boys are 14-16: 2 Star, 4 Life, 1 Eagle).

Here's my plan - any thoughts?~
The ASM wishes to say, "I'm sorry for my poor judgement. It was wrong and I apologize."

I intend to ask if the parent group still supports me and trusts me as SM. Is not, I'll resign on the spot. If so, I'll remind them that I am responsible for having brought all these leaders together for this troop, and should therefore be responsible as to the decision about this one.

I then intend to keep her as an ASM, reassign her to help organize and plan COH, SMConf, and encourage Rank advancement in Patrols, but NOT be allowed to serve as the second adult on an overnight event. I wish to state that in our troop, the first two adults leaders on any overnight event will be MALE. (I don't have a lot of fathers who are active, but they are mouthy!)

Am I thinking clearly? (this is my one question in all of this)

That's it in a (VERY LARGE) nutshell. I doubt you can grasp my deep concern and the hurt that I am feeling over this situation. I tend to "type" rather matter-of-factly. I am very worried about the 42 boys of my troop. I only want what is best for them. I have known ALL of these children since they were infants!!! It's an amazing position to be in.

[Mrw]

This might be a good way to get some of those mouthy dads to put their words into actions.

I think you are going about things in a pretty good way. I rather suspect an offer to resign on the spot might be a little OTT, but it would also emphasize your determination to try to do right by the boys.

It might be useful to arrange a troop committee training session on how things should work and get some of these unregistered parents to come as well so they learn what they need to know about a troop organization and what you need from them as far as support goes.

[jr56]

Sounds like you are on the right track. By the way, one of my pet peeves are mouthy parents who don't do anything to help. I always tell them to put up or shut up. I would see what the talents of the big mouths are, and offer them jobs to do that would take advantage of their skills.

[Billiken]

ASM did not stop the boys in some of their comments, then began making the same comments to them, even with the use of language.

My attempts to cease the activity was ignored by her, then of course by the boys.

She has got to go. Completely from Scouting.

1. She allowed non-scoutlike behavior to continue.
2. She ignored your requests for it to stop. - this openly/blatantly diminished your authority as SM over your scouts.
Your scouts now have less respect for you because of this.
(What if the next time you tell them to stop something it is a safety issue?)

In hindsight, I would have, after two warnings, sent the offending scouts home. If necessary, I would have pulled the plug on the event.

Personnaly, I would send a letter (hard copy..no e-mail) to all of your scouts' parents explaining that Mrs. XXX is no longer involved in Scouting.
I would also send a copy of the Council Executive.

One of the Central Region's World Jamboree troops sent a scout home from England this past summer. What do think that cost his family?
"Yes, I need a ticket for an unaccompanied minor on your next London to Cincinnati flight."

[scouter01]

ASM did not stop the boys in some of their comments, then began making the same comments to them, even with the use of language.

My attempts to cease the activity was ignored by her, then of course by the boys.

She has got to go. Completely from Scouting.

1. She allowed non-scoutlike behavior to continue.
2. She ignored your requests for it to stop. - this openly/blatantly diminished your authority as SM over your scouts.
Your scouts now have less respect for you because of this.
(What if the next time you tell them to stop something it is a safety issue?)

In hindsight, I would have, after two warnings, sent the offending scouts home. If necessary, I would have pulled the plug on the event.

Personnaly, I would send a letter (hard copy..no e-mail) to all of your scouts' parents explaining that Mrs. XXX is no longer involved in Scouting.
I would also send a copy of the Council Executive.

One of the Central Region's World Jamboree troops sent a scout home from England this past summer. What do think that cost his family?
"Yes, I need a ticket for an unaccompanied minor on your next London to Cincinnati flight."

1 out of thousands. perhaps this was much less severe.

[Billiken]

Our troop Committee Chair is woman.
So is our Advancement Chair and Fundraising Director.
Great Scouters...each and every one.

My anger over this incident has nothing to do with the gender of the SA.
It's that the SA damaged the SM's authority and participated in non-scoutlike behavior.