Discipline Issues

[Beagle Scout]

"Please do not take offence to this BUT I do not believe in ADD and ADHD I believe that this gives a child "cart blanche" for bad Behavior"

Boy do I agree with you here. I get so tired of listening to parents cry for special consideration because of his "issues". FWIW, that includes my wife.

There's a pair of junior terrorists that live on my street. They destroy property and beat up kids but mom says that we "have to understand" because they have "issues." My daughter caused one serious pain when he tried to hurt her and mom came to scream at me. Her thought was that my little girl should have waited until her son had actually hurt her and then complained to mom and the boy would have been grounded.

We all have issues. Kids need to learn to work past them because out in the real world, your boss won't care. He'll just can you and hire someone else.

[mommatoodle]

Ok. On my soapbox...I do believe in add/adhd..I have a son with adhd. Do I let him get away with this as an excuse for behavior? NOOOOO. He knows right from wrong. Can he always sit still, no, but he is still expected to behave. I do agree that add/adhd should not be a crutch for learning how to behave.

This young gentleman should be away from the other kids, if he is violent. And since he got in trouble at school also for violence, then he should be removed from the troop.

Scouts is a place that boys should feel safe while having fun. If one is not safe than there is a problem. Hope all works out.

[Rick Tyler]

Ok. On my soapbox...I do believe in add/adhd..I have a son with adhd. Do I let him get away with this as an excuse for behavior? NOOOOO. He knows right from wrong. Can he always sit still, no, but he is still expected to behave. I do agree that add/adhd should not be a crutch for learning how to behave.

I just wanted to add here that the whole ADD thing encompasses different symptoms for different kids. Some can't sit still or focus. Others change tasks every 30 seconds. There is another form (or symptom), that is something our family doc refers to as Inattention Deficit. I've worked with three boys in our troop who have this. They aren't hyperactive or blatantly disobedient, they just have a great deal of trouble dealing with listening and processing verbal information. With some experience, I can tell when they are off their meds in about 30 minutes.

This caused a big problem a few years ago on a winter camp when one of these kids would not take proper precautions against cold. Even after multiple rounds of telling him to wear gloves, put on his parka, etc., he kept removing layers and otherwise acting in unwise ways. We found out after the campout that his parents were giving him a "medication holiday" for the weekend. I learned two things from this. First, if a parent takes a boy off ADD medicine for an outing, they have to personally attend. Second, if a boy isn't listening to you, you should figure out why that is, and soon. All three of these boys are fine when they take their meds, and difficult to deal with otherwise. We now take a greater interest in learning about any special requirements of our scouts -- including ADD, one boy with mild cerebral palsy, and another who just comes from a disastrous home life.

Even though I've worked with a couple of boys who were just juvenile terrorists, an ADD diagnosis isn't always a scam.

[Lynda J]

An update on my kid with problems.
We had ask him mother and dad to be at scouts last night for a meeting after our scout meeting. His mother pulled up before the troop meeting started. Her son got out, ran up to the door, and told us that he was quiting because "Boy Scouts just isn't his thing", walked out, got in her car and they drove off. We found out later that he has been placed in an alternative school because of violence at school. One of our older boys ask why "D" didn't stay. We told him that he had quit. His comment was.
"I am glad he is leaving, but sad too. He caused so much trouble, but I feel sorry for him"
The saddest part is that this mother still hasn't dealt with what her son is becoming. She had no idea what happened at camp. I found this weekend that he actually threatened one of the boys. So it is over and we go forward from here.
It still breaks my heart. He needs something like scouting so much.
But we can't save them all.

[wagionvigil]

They will blame everyone but him and themselves. Experience!

[OldGreyBear]

I do not understand the reluctance of some people to accept ADD as a real condition. Now, I am not saying that it isnt overdiagnosed, but not to recognize ADD is incomprehensible.

School systems dont seem to have a problem with developing "gifted" programs, to challenge smart kids, but seem to balk at offering a challenging curriculum to kids who don't learn in the normal accepted way. If you cant tolerate a lecture presented by a Ben Stein clone covering mitosis, you are clearly anit-social. Just ignore the lack of acetylcholine in the students brain, they are just thugs loking for an excuse.

I would never advocate keeping a scout around if he is a danger to himself or others, but just because he is challenge is no reason to turn your back on him

[wagionvigil]

Working in a school system for well over 30 years I can attest that we do have programs for these kids. BUT their parents and the student use their ADD/ADHD as an excuse for everything from Being late in the morning to sucker punching a totally innocent kid. AND Get away with it because they have an IEP. One IEP was forced on us that the student was permitted to use any cuss word he wanted to at whoever because his parents would not sign an IEP that restricted his use of curse words. Oh he is in Jail now at 15 years old felony assult on a police officer.And the parents blame everyone but who should be blamed I have a million more. But thats enough.

[RWSmith]

Lynda,

I agree that safety is paramount and must always be considered above the wants or needs of one. But, I believe “D” wants Scouting... It seems like he’s boxed himself into a corner. Besides, I’d bet his mother pulled the plug, not him – It’s his mother who’s taking the easy way out, not him. He’s taking the hard road. Yes, it his choice. Yes, he should pay for those choices. But, what and how he pays will determine his future.

That being said, if a kid wants Scouting, we are obligated to try to afford him (or her) every feasible opportunity. Most kids that have problems know it. Not only do these kids need help, but they want it. (Even so, such a child could still be psychotic. And if this kid scares you, then believe me, I respect that position—and you should vigorously defend it.) One-third of the “Youth Protection” equation involves the “Youth” participant’s obligation to be safe. The other two-thirds, the “Prote-ction” part, involves two (or more adults). So, there are three parts to the equation…

You… and the other leaders are at your wits end. Is it fair to say that everything you’ve tried has failed? If so, then logic dictates that the traditional Scouting coaching methods are not going to work on this kid. We adults "show" kids the coping skills that have worked for us.

The kid… has been a long-time disruptor and continues to be so. Does he seek constant attention, even the wrong way(s)? Especially so? This kid is coping the best way he knows how. I understand that doesn’t make it the right way. But, does he?

The parent(s)… more likely than not, are the true source of the problem. This has been going on for some time. At least one parent is in denial. And worst of all, a parent could not be found when he/she was needed. Chances are, the problem is some thing that breathes oxygen and walks on two legs. There are other possibilities, e.g., witnessing a horrific accident involving a loved one. But, given the known facts, I'll stick with my first guess.

At any rate, here's my point, actually two of them…

I have seen a little Ritalin with a lot of tough, but consistent love and support go a long way. I witnesed a true miracle with a close friend’s son… he was exactly like the kid you’ve described, except that "D" isn’t getting the help that he needs.

On the other end of the spectrum, literally, I know of another situation where somebody who chose, instead of drugs, to utilize the proven methods Dr. David W. Keirsey. I can personally attest to the immeasurable value of "Abuse it - Loose it". It’s a lot of hard work but, it pays dividends like you wouldn’t believe. I know, I’ve seen it myself.

[Lynda J]

I got D when he was in 3rd grade. He was always a challenge but I could handle him. I give him additional work to do. But he has begun to become violent.
I have tried to talk to his mother. No response. She simply says that she doesn't have any trouble with him. Just like last night. She didn't ever want to come in and talk to us. But she is also probably tired of everyone wanting to "talk to her about D". She has another son who is in a youth treatment facility. But she just doesn't see what is going on with D. I have suggested that she take him for counseling. She told me that they had him in anger management counseling for about a month but she didn't see it doing any good so she took him out. Of course it might help if she sobbered up once in awhile.
I agree that of all the boys in my troop he needs this the most. But I also understand that if we start losing other boys from the troop it doesn't help the troop. I found out last night from another parent that he had actually threatened her son at school. The police were called and D was suspended from school.
This has been one of the hardest decissions I have ever had to make concerning kids I work with. This has broken my heart. I know that he truly needs help. But without assistance from the parents I can't do any more than I have.
Last night after I got home, Kevin told me that he was scared of D. That he had beat a kid up at school the week before. He said he was glad that D had had to go to the other school. I simply can not risk the safety of the other boys.
Inside this mountain of rage and anger is a really good kid. But he needs help finding that kid and it is beyond my ability to help him.

[OldGreyBear]

I give up, you are right, all us ADD parents are shifless skunks looking for a free pass for our kids, forget my ADD son who earned Eagle at 16, forget I wouldnt let his behavior be any less then any normal kid, you know better, I wont get in the way of your facts

[evmori]

wagonvigil might have been generalizing but his post holds some truth. Most not all parents of ADD/ADHD kids think special accommodations should be made for their kids. I had an ADHD kid who stole money and three knives from another Scout at summer camp. We recovered everything & the thief was suspended from the Troop. The thief never came back but I received a letter from mom stating we didn't do the right thing because we didn't understand ADHD kids!

[wagionvigil]

Sorry to say I was Not generalizing. What I said truly happened.

[wagionvigil]

Ole Grey Bear your son di as well as he did because of his upbringing .I have had add/adhd scouts and they did well Because I would not allow them to use that as an excuse. ALso I had very supportive parents that cared and were involved. In Lyndas Case and in the case I quoted there was something Missing !Parents that support you in the troop with their son. I have two in my band at this time also I have two autistic boys that are also add/adhd in my band and we laid the ground rules day one. Your condidtion is never and excuse for anti social behavior. The one Autistic boy we have discovered has absolute pitch and we have him composing and arranging music.

[cballman]

first thing is to remember that we all are individuals and we each have a opinion of somethings. just because we differ in opinions dont mean that we are wrong but like the kids in question each and every one of us look adnd do things differently. are we wrong yes and no depends who your are talking to. Just last weekend I had a parent ask me about their son who has a case of mild mental retardation. what req. can be changed to help their son? My answer is and always will be lets see what the child can do without the mother or father being around and see who has the most problems. I told her the answer and she agreed with me it was NOT the child but the parents wh put the limitions on their child and after a while the child will believe them and will quit trying. If a parent wont see that we are trying to help their chlldren then they must do what they feel the need to do as in dropping out of scouts. But to group any problems into a group that these are just bad kids Then it is US that have a problem. so if you look at it that way Lynda you are right. also Oldgreybear you are also right. but then again I have been blessed with over 20 kids with problems and issues in the last 8 years of scouting. and guess what I draw these kids and I am proud of the fact that I can relate to each and everyone of them. Because Yes I also have been diagnosed with ADHD and I have learned to live with it. so yes I know and have experenced this first hand.

sorry so long but when we talk about something dear to me we have to remember we all are different so nobody can be treated just like each other.

[Lynda J]

Our troop also has ADD/ADHD boys, and two that suffer from a mild form of autisum. But none of their parents pull any punches. They do not allow their kids to use these conditions as a crutch or an excuse. Yes we do, in part deal with them a little different in some cases. One of the boys with autisum is a computer whiz. We have him do our troop newsletter and handles our e-mail list. One is loves to cook and he has now been put in charge of keeping track of what we need to cook to advance in skills.
It gives them both things they are especially good at to be responsible for.
It doesnt bother me to work with troubled kids. Spent 7 years teaching school working with troubled kids. But the parents have to be part of the process. And if the parent is saying there isn't a problem when everyone around them is trying to talk to them then they are putting blinders on. The the parent is in reality part of the problem.

[optimist]

Despite the friction this topic has caused, it is apparent and inspiring to note the efforts to which Scout leaders will go to include boys that others might turn away. In case nobody has thanked you folks lately, I'd like to thank you for all you do.