Earning Badges As A Troop

[commish3]

teepeeay asks an excellent question.

If the troop is participating in a troop activity for which MB requirements can be signed off, why not?

The BSA resources would say 'because that is not the purpose of the merit badge program'. Also because, while it would be fine to use those activities to learn and practice merit badge skills, the advancement policies require that each scout be tested individually. While some merit badges lend themselves to individual testing within a group, most do not.

Another problem with group advancement becoming the troop program structure is that it ignores the interests of the individual scout and simply makes advancement an assembly line activity. Remember that there is only one rank advancement goal in the scouting program, and it isn't Eagle. Eagle is meant to be a unique individual accomplishment that is the result of the goal setting and decision of the individual scout, and one where each scout creates his own unique merit badge path based on his personl choices and interests.

wagionvigil makes an interesting comment.

It is up to their SM and their Counselor they may have later to decide if they will count.

Is there anything in the BSA program that gives the SM any authority over merit badge requirements? The advancement policies are quite explicit on this. The merit badge counselor is the sole authority on merit badge requirement completion. The scoutmaster's role is to make sure the scout has an approved and registered counselor before he begins, and to give the scout a signed reciept when the counselor signed MB record card is returned to the troop. In between those times the merit badge counselor is the sole authority.

[wagionvigil]

The SCoutmaster Must sign the MB Card before he goes to a counselor.

[commish3]

Oh I agree, it's just that the SM is not approving or disapproving requirements when he or she signs. I believe when the fellows at the mountain send the letter that the scout did his rappels, only the counselor has the authority to accept or deny them toward the merit badge. The scoutamster plays no role in that.

[wagionvigil]

OK I can agree with that.

[Rick Tyler]

I personally don't think that Starbucks is a place to do mb counseling.
The only time I do any counseling away from our Scout Hut is if it directly relates to the badge. Like next week we are going to the Zoo to work with their staff on Reptile. They have volunteered to work with the boys. Just don't think a coffee shop is the place to meet. MHO

Hey, you're the counselor, you can meet any place you want. Not having a "Scout Hut," I use my imagination. The Starbucks is right next door to the high school and just down the block from the junior high. I have a flexible work schedule so I can meet boys (in pairs) right after school.

I won't have scouts at my house (I am more careful than the G2SS requires), and I don't want to invite myself to theirs. Starbucks is a convenient public meeting place with tables and chairs.

I've tried meeting Scouts during troop meetings, but there is too much going on, and none of us like to miss the program. I think Starbucks is a great place to meet. MHO.

[Lynda J]

I guess our troop is blessed. The Lion's Club is our Charter Org. They furnish us a building that belongs to the Pack and Troop. We all have keys to it. At the point the troop outgrew the hut and we were given keys to the Lion's Club Building. It works great. Having use of the larger building give us the use of equipment for powerpoint and film presentations.

I understand meeting in a public place, but to me I would find someplace like Starbucks very distracting for the boy, especially since most of the boys I am working with are 11-14. If I were forced to meet in a public place I would prefer someplace with less traffic and distractions.
Actually I have 3 boys working on Reading and Saturday they start to program at our Library where they are doing a reading time for the next 4 Saturdays at a library in a very low income area. The kids had to sign up for it. Right now we have 23 4-5-6 year olds that will be there. I am spliting up the scouts so it breaks the group up.
I do a lot of field visits on merit badges. I try to use resources in our area.
Not only does it make it easier on me. But it also shows the boys fun places to go and do things. It also exposes the community to Boy Scouts. Since I ask them to wear their uniforms when we to a field visit.
By the way. The zoo trip rated 100% with the boys and the volunteer that worked with them had a ball. They were allowed to hold NP snakes and spiders. One of the older boys has ask about doing volunteer work at the zoo. He can't until he is 16.
I think one of the greatest things about this forum is the different ideas on various subjects.

[teepeeayy]

Commish, I agree with about 95% of your reply to me. I still think there are opportunities for a troop to demonstrate a small number of skills if an activity has been planned (go back to the canoeing thing. How hard would it be to have a group of boys learn/demonstrate a "J" stroke?

I agree, however, that MB's should be individual efforts. In my area there is a troop we call the merit badge factory. Literally every troop meeting is designed around completing MB requirements. That's why my son and I joined the troop we did. Our SM would never complete MB requirements at a troop meeting. He continuously reminds us he's trying to create self-sufficient men. The first time my son called a MB counselor to arrange a meeting was a confidence-building, learning experience.

Thanks for the feedback.

[optimist]

Basically, it's okay to teach merit badges to groups, it's simply not the prefered method. Here is the BSA policy on instructing merit badges in a group situation:

Group Instruction of Merit Badges. The question arises as to whether it is permissible to have Scouts earn merit badges in groups. Many subjects may be presented to groups of Scouts without defeating one of the purposes of the merit badge plan -- working closely with a qualified Scout.

The National Executive Board has approved this policy statement on merit badge counseling:

"To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge counseling relationship is a counselor-Scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, but receives maximum benefit from the knowledge, skill, character, and personal interest of his counselor. Group instruction and orientation are encouraged where special facilities and expert personnel make this most practical, or when Scouts are dependent on only a few counselors for assistance. However, this group experience should be followed by attention to each individual candidate's projects and his ability to fulfill all requirements."

In harmony with this policy, a troop or team may use merit badge counselors in unit meetings. The merit badge counselor can make a presentation covering the highlights of a merit badge subject. Scouts should then be given an opportunity to try some skill related to the badge. This introduction to a merit badge can spark an interest in the subject.

[commish3]

I am familiar with that passage from the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual Optimist. Would you agree that what it is saying is that group instruction and practice is a way to introduce or develop interest in a merit badge, but following that, meeting the requirements (testing) needs to be done on an individually basis?

[teepeeayy]

Commish, I agree.

OK to teach to a group, skill must be demonstrated individually

[optimist]

Yes, I can read just as well as you can. I readily acknowledge the need for individual testing. What's your point? There's nothing that says I can't sit down with ten Scouts and ask each one in turn to tell me how he completed a specific requirement. I don't have to meet with them individually to test them individually, I simply have to take the time to check their work and address each Scout as needed, even in a group forum. There is no rule against teaching merit badges in a group environment.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

This is evident in summer camp merit badge sessions, where badges are routinely earned with as many as 10 in a class.

[commish3]

Yes, I can read just as well as you can.

I think you misunderstood me, I made no mention to or questioned your ability to read anything.

I readily acknowledge the need for individual testing. What's your point?

I have none. The BSA seems to have a point that individual testing is an important part of the MB process.

There's nothing that says I can't sit down with ten Scouts and ask each one in turn to tell me how he completed a specific requirement.

But then how do you know what a scout understands and what he is simply parroting from the person(s) before him?

Another problem with doing group instruction as a troop is..what about the scout who doesn't want to do that badge? After all the very first step in earning a merit badge is "the scout chooses a mb topic"? it would seem that troop group instruction opens up a lot of opportunity to force a scout along an advancement trail of someone elses choosing wouldn't it?

Summer camp presents its own problems. While some merit badges avail themselves to individual testing in a group (shooting targets comes to mind), others do not. I saw a counselor pass 45 boys in First Aid by asking the group a question, one person answered, and all were passed on the requirement. That is where I believe group merit badge work does a great disservice to the scouts.

[optimist]

The reality is that the majority of merit badges are no longer taught individually but in a group forum. Regardless of the perfect world you hope to achieve by your insistance that the rules be adhered to scrupulously, in this case the rules are not hard and fast. The fact that the BSA goes so far as to include what amounts to a personal plea shows that they realize which way the wind is blowing even though they wish it wasn't.

At this point, I feel it is important to point out that the rules weren't made to be hammers to bludgeon across the heads of the members of the Scouting movement. If you think less of me for that statement, I don't mind. Baden-Powell said basically the same thing and while I will never be the great Scouter he was, I emulate him when I can.

If you said that singular interaction is the best possible method, I would have no problem with that. Instead, you make it clear that one-on-one interation is the only possible method. If that's the case, lots of Scouts have lots of merit badges that they never earned. Any statements to the effect that the BSA has some exemption from their own rules for any reason ignores the fact that we are the BSA. All of us have the responsibility to provide a good program and that doesn't change for convenience. Group instruction is either part of a good program or it's not. If it's good, it should be used. If it's not, it should be banned in all aspects of Scouting.

[commish3]

The reality is that the majority of merit badges are no longer taught individually but in a group forum.

Isn't that really a unit by unit situation? I know in my son's troop (and other troops I have visited) merit badges are only done by individuals unless at summercamp. It is a program choice.

Instead, you make it clear that one-on-one interation is the only possible method.

I am not sure where you got that idea from? Nowhere in my posts did I say that, nor did I ever say it was a rule. It is part of the advancement method. I simply pointed out some of the dangers that are inherent in group merit badge work and why the BSA does not recommend it.

Certainly every unit is free to make their own choices. But rules aside and looking only at the methods of scouting (and truly not trying to hammer anyone) If every unit changes the methods... at what point does it cease being a national 'program' and simply become a myriad of different programs sharing a similar uniform?

A historic note:
Baden-Powell disliked the merit badge program entirely. Merit badges were a creation of Ernest Thomas-Seton and their inclusion in the program caused a rift between Powell and the BSA that never really healed.

[wagionvigil]

There are many Merit Badges that need to be with more than one. Swimming, Lifesaving, Climbing for instance.

[optimist]

Since you insist on tearing peoples posts apart line by line, I decided to return the favor.

The reality is that the majority of merit badges are no longer taught individually but in a group forum.

Isn't that really a unit by unit situation? I know in my son's troop (and other troops I have visited) merit badges are only done by individuals unless at summercamp. It is a program choice.

We're not talking about a unit by unit policy, we're talking about Scouting as a whole. The majority I'm refering to is the majority of Scouts as a whole. If you're telling us that the majority of the Scouts in your troop earn more merit badges on their own than they earn at summer camp and advancement days, your troop is at one end of the spectrum. The other end of the spectrum includes troops with Scouts who almost never earn any merit badges unless it is at summer camp or at advancement days. Somewhere in between lies the average troop with Scouts who earn 5-6 merit badges a year through organized group programs and 2-4 merit badges per year through personal effort and troop activities.

Instead, you make it clear that one-on-one interation is the only possible method.

I am not sure where you got that idea from? Nowhere in my posts did I say that, nor did I ever say it was a rule. It is part of the advancement method. I simply pointed out some of the dangers that are inherent in group merit badge work and why the BSA does not recommend it.

You contradicted yourself since "the advancement method" is a set of rules. And the fact that you speak with innuendo instead of saying things outright does not mean we don't understand what you are trying to say. Let's review:

teepeeay asks an excellent question.

If the troop is participating in a troop activity for which MB requirements can be signed off, why not?

The BSA resources would say 'because that is not the purpose of the merit badge program'.

I think its fairly clear in the above statement that you were telling teepeeay that the BSA says signing off on acitivities completed in a troop as a group is wrong. Frankly, I find that disgusting and I'm glad you are not a merit badge counselor in my district. If a Scout does the work, he gets the credit, period. Anything else is a violation of the rules because it is adding to the requirements.

Another problem with group advancement becoming the troop program structure is that it ignores the interests of the individual scout and simply makes advancement an assembly line activity.

Now who is generalizing? Are you saying it is impossible to give individual attention in a group environment? I've taught groups, I know better from my own experience.

Would you agree that what it is saying is that group instruction and practice is a way to introduce or develop interest in a merit badge, but following that, meeting the requirements (testing) needs to be done on an individually basis?

Once again, you made this point in the form of a question implying that the requirements (rules) need to be completed outside the group environment. Sir, if you are going to argue, please do not contridict yourself so much. You made it clear that you believe the rules require one-on-one interaction throughout this entire thread and you only muddy the waters by implying that you did not.

Certainly every unit is free to make their own choices. But rules aside and looking only at the methods of scouting (and truly not trying to hammer anyone) If every unit changes the methods... at what point does it cease being a national 'program' and simply become a myriad of different programs sharing a similar uniform?

Nobody is changing the methods here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. We are all the BSA and if the BSA uses these methods in camps and advancement days then the BSA can use these methods anywhere within the program. Standing on a podium and thumping the rule book will not change reality.

While individual instruction will always be preferred, group instruction is an accepted part of the program and is used quite often. Instead of ignoring the situation or arguing over it or even condemning it, we should be working to ensure that group instruction is done well when it is done.

[commish3]

I really do not understand your hostility toward my posts. Are my observations any less valid than anyone elses simply because you see them differently?

A question was asked and different posters gave different insights.

I have not torn anyone posts apart line by line, I copied and pasted quotes as reference to my response just as several other posters have done in their reponses in a multitute of other threads. I do not understand how when I do it it is suddenly a bad thing.

I think perhaps we differ on what a progam "Method" is. I do not see it as a set of rules for in fact nowhere is the use of the various program methods mandated. They are as I understand them the "stuff" of which the Scouting program is made. They are the elements of 'how we do scouting' that mesh with the Aims (what we do through Scouting) to achieve the Mission (the Why we do scouting).

So, far from being rules, they are as I understand it, what make scouting...Scouting. Am I incorrect in that understanding?

I have never considered a measurement of good program to be what the 'majority ' of units do, but by what follows the methods and achieves the Aims of the program. I do not insist that others feel the same way, and I make no apology for feeling the way I do.

As far as units who who do not do group merit badge classes as troop meetings being the exception, that has not been my experience In any of the councils I have served in as a volunteer. While I understand your experience is different I don't think that either of us can base a national average on our limited data.

[don]

Frank J asked
We joined a very small troop at the beginning of the summer and they are of the opinion that MBs should be done as a troop and not individually. Is it necessary for all Scouts in the troop to work on the same merit badge at the same time?

I would really think about finding another troop. If a troop does not allow a scout to work on a merit badge on his own, there is a real problem with the troop. There have been some good ideas within the thread about the question.

There are many things that can and should be done at a troop meetings besides merit badges. A troop that brings in adults to do the teaching at troop meetings really do a disservice to the scout leaders of the troop. How does having a adult teaching at a troop meeting provide leadership to the scouts?

But the times are a changing!

[optimist]

I'm sorry commish3 but I have no need to answer any of the above publically because we already discussed it privately quite thoroughly some time back. I thought you were going to play nice, you did for a while, but apparently you've decided to go back to the way things were. This could have stayed private but you chose to continue to do things you knew where not allowed here and then chose to try to bait me into a public confrontation over it. You brought this public condemnation upon yourself by your very refusal to follow the rules and my only concern at this point is the fact that I allowed you to continue doing this for so long. I apologize to all concerned for my handling of this problem.

It's a shame you chose to ignore my points and simply attack me directly. I would have liked to have seen your response to my direct responses. Frankly, your knowledge of the program is excellent and if you were willing to try to be helpful instead of simply preaching your idea of Scouting perfection, I would welcome your thoughts here. As it is, your participation in this thread is over. Your continued participation in these boards is up to you. If you don't like the way things are run here, nobody is twisting your arm to stay. However, if you refuse to abide by my rules, I will be showing you the door. You have my email if you wish to discuss my rules again privately but there will be no further public discussion of this matter.