What do I do with these problem scouts?

[scoutaholic]

Last night was one of those meetings when I (the SM) came home wondering why I keep doing this to myself.

In this LDS troop, we have regular meetings at the church at the same time as the varsity team, venture crew, and young women activities. I have two ASMs assigned to attend meetings with the troop and help run the troop programs. One ASM hasn't been to a meeting in several weeks (I think he has reprioritized his time to go to baseball practices with his younger son rather than scouts with the older one). The other ASM called me as the meeting was starting to tell me he couldn't make it. That left me in charge of troop meeting with 6 boys and no other adults (plenty of adults in the building, but none in the room with me).

We have a COH scheduled next week. The plan was to do lashings for the first few minutes to finish 1st class for one boy (and count it for some of the others). Afterwords, I had some games and activities planned for the boys to do while I did SMConferences and the committee did BORs.

Half of the boys present had previously passed off the lashing requirements for 1st class and/or pioneering MB (including the SPL (my son) and the ASPL). Two of them readily admitted that they don't remember how to do the lashings. They were playing with the ropes, tying eachother with the ropes, and generally disrupting the rest of the group. The other boy SPL took some ropes out into the hall and tied them between the stair rails. The boy for whom the lashing were scheduled, apparently, couldn't stand being one of those doing what he should. I had to help refocus him several times to do the 3 lashings in 45 minutes. In the mean time, I had made repeated request of my son to untie the ropes on the stair rails, and for all the boys to participate with the group. By the time we finished teaching 3 lashings to the boys who would listen, they had jumped on the ropes between the stair rails, which pulled the rail out of the wall. My nerves were shot!

About that time the varsity and venture boys finished their planned activity and came in to disrupt the troop meeting.

It was obvious at this point that I couldn't trust any of the youth leadership to take charge of games/acitivities while I was doing SM Conferences. I gave some assignments, fully expecting that they would not be done. I then got the SM Conferences and BORs started, leaving only 4 boys at a time alone in the main meeting room.

The boys who were not in conference or BORs continued to wander the halls, disrupt others, and do anything but what they were assigned. When I got back to the main meeting room, I found the lashing ropes and poles thrown all over the room. The church hymnals had also been thrown about and at least two of them were totally destroyed.

The father of the boy whos weight pulled the stair-rails from the wall is in charge of the physical facilities at the church. I assigned the boy to report the damage to his father and told him that he could share the blame with those who had helped do the damage. I suspect that he won't tell his dad at all, or that he will minimize his part in the destruction and will have no consequence at home.

All five boys passed the BOR. Had I been a part of the board and known what was going on in the meeting (and outside of it), I don't think some of these boys would have passed.

My son got reamed by his mother when I got home and told her about the problems I'd had. He has to appologize to the SM (me), and contact the physical facilities rep to see if there is anything he can do to help fix the building damage. His mother is planning to attend meetings with him for the next month, since he has proven that he needs a babysitter.

Some of these same boys have previously caused me much embarrassment when I take them places. They attend about half their classes at merit-badge workshops, and convince their friends to leave with them for the other half. I once paid $15/each for a MB class at the zoo. I boy didn't show at all. The others made us late, complained that they had to go, and talked over the instructor so much that she finally got after them too. They bring their skate-boards to activities and spend about 1/3 of the time outside (where the no skating signs are clearly posted) skating.

We have a COH scheduled next week, and the annual scout expo (including troop campout overnight) the following weekend. Later this month we were planning to take the group to the olympic skating oval for a Skating MB class.

I'm considering a talk at the COH (with all the parents present) about the fact that I can't trust the boys to stay out of trouble and do what they are supposed to be doing.
I'm considering canceling the skating activity and/or the camp at the scout expo, because I don't want to take boys who act like this into any public setting.
I'm considering requiring boys to bring their parents to meetings so the parents can babysit.
I'm considering individual talks with the parents of each boy, to make sure the parents are aware of the magnitude of the problem, and see if they have any suggestions about getting the boys under control.
After 9 years as SM, I'm considering leaving the troop and letting someone else deal with this problem, but don't want to leave the troop when my own boys are finally old enough to participate.


Any suggestions?
What do I do with these boys?

[cballman]

First thing I would do is to let the parents know that for their son to be there one of them has to be there also. if not then the child does not need to be there at all. as to the destructive nature of some of the boys then I would make them think about what they have done after the facitilies person has came in and had a little talk with the whole group about how much damage they did and how much it cost to repair the damage. wow how about having him come in for the COH and give his talk. might work wonders on the kids and parents.

[Mrw]

I would also make it clear to both the boys and the parents that if they are out of line you will have them call for a ride home early. That disrespect and vandalism will not be tolerated.

[smtroop168]

Whew! You may win the award for the longest post ever. Here's my take:

1. I would have cancelled all SMC and BORs scheduled that night immediately. If you're the only leader there, you also have a YPT issue.

2. Hold a SMC which each boy with their parent present. I know this is tough but it looks like it's necessary. Remember SMCs are not just for advancement. Explain that their behavior is not in keeping with the Scout Oath and Law and they can be removed from the program if the behavior continues.

3. Does your troop have a written Code of Conduct? Here's ours:

Code of Conduct
Along with the opportunities that Scouting offers comes to each Scout the obligation to conduct himself during Troop meetings and activities in a manner that is consistent with the characteristics called for by the Scout Law. Among other expectations of the Scout will be a display by him of courtesy and helpfulness to others and obedience to Junior and Adult Leadership. Also, compliance with safety and troop operation rules will be emphasized and required.
Parent(s) and/or legal guardians are encouraged to remind their Scouts that his behavior during Scouting activities will reflect on his Patrol, Troop, his family and all who contribute their time and attention in support of the Troop. If a Scout finds himself unable to obey the Scout Law during Troop Meetings and activities his parent(s) and/or legal guardian will be notified and his opportunities to participate in future activities may be restricted.
Scouts unable to follow the Code of Conduct or policies of the Troop will be brought before the Scoutmaster for disciplinary action.
If any infraction cannot be handled by the Scoutmaster, a special disciplinary Board of Review may be held for further action and disposition. Serious breaches of conduct will be referred to the Troop Committee who will follow the previously outlined chain of command.


Best of luck.

[deweylure]

The first problem of ASM not showing is a meeting to find out why. Tell them this is leaving you a tight spot because of activities and YPT.

Ask some of the other parents to stay at least this eliminates a YPT problem.

You mentioned the Venturing crew came in . Why not ask them to help out with the lashings and other activites.


Talk to the parents about conduct and the Troop rule is no skate board use at meetings.

A time out so to speak for the trouble makers seems to be in order ,they can not go on one of your up coming trips

They should also pay for the damaged church property or at least work it off with service that will not be counted for rank.

Your not alone I am sure every SM has gone thru this. You are doing a great service and the boys need a role model.

Deweylure

[jr56]

I agree with the previous posts. Sounds like a get back to basics time.
You need to have a meeting with the boys and their parents. Let them know that this behavior will not be tolerated. Let the parents know that you will not be placed in a position like that again, you need at least 2 deep leadership at all events at all times.
Have each individual boy meet with you and come to an understanding of why his behavior is unacceptable, and what he intends to do to correct it.
I would put all future activities on hold until these basic problems are addressed.

[pipestone1991]

Because I have sme experience in this matter, I will say what I know. I know that I did a three-month probation (i.e. couldn't get my Eagle Award) for something FAR less than this (apparently I was immature, I still don't see how working very hard to get to Eagle and other awards is immature).


1.I say if anyone is close to there Eagle I would put them on a probationary period. it will scare them and they will get very active and I believe far better behaved right away.

2. I also like the idea of speaking at the COR. Do not let your son be the only one punished, that is unfair.

[ronin718]

Scoutaholic... Being LDS myself, I have a little different viewpoint and approach here. Beyond those comments already provided, here's what else you could do:

1. Time to have a meeting with the YMP and BYC (minus the YW). Since this will likely include the members of your PLC, this should easily include all the necessary members of the various patrols. Explain that this behavior is unacceptable, lay out a game plan for future consequences, and put it all out on the table for their action.

2. Have a meeting with the parents. Explain to them what's going on, and put together a schedule for one or two of them to attend each week. After a period of time where these young men are getting treated like Cubs, they'll hopefully get their act together.

3. Invite the B2C to attend the weekly meeting. Maybe even have the B attend. See if this doesn't put a damper on the rowdiness.

4. Have a chat with your ASM who is putting LL ahead of his calling. Explain that he has more than just his son depending on him, and maybe have his wife share some of the LL duties. Maybe put together a schedule with both ASMs to establish responsibility of coverage so LL ASM can still be with that son and yet not leave you in the lurch.

5. Confiscate all extracurricular materials at the start of the meeting. Said items are not returned until after the meeting has been closed.

I realize some of these go against the "boy-run, boy-led" concept, but sometimes when BRBL is not working, the adults need to step in and steady the ark.

[smtroop168]

Yes it's boy run/boy led but not boy-run-amok.

[spl08]

hmmm. I'd have to say I agree with pipestone. If their conduct gets too out of hand, dish out a promotion freeze or two. that should really be one of the last resorts though. I would start by asking the scouts WHY exactly they came to meetings. Are they there just because their parents are making them? Do they have no interest in scouting? I would also explain the importance of what it is you do at the meetings, and how their actions make it harder to get done what needs to be and in the end makes things worse. If it's a maturity problem, that will go away with time, experience, and training on their part. If it's not, these scouts should reconsider their memebership in BSA or you might want to reconsider it for them.

[RMM]

I was involved in a similiar challenging situation. A have would have met with the adult in charge of the BOR and explained what was happening. That night the Scouts not following the law did not have the section signed off about living in the Scouting spirit. They did not move onto the BOR. If the Scouts involved already had the SMC then their conduct was reviewed by the BOR. The Scouts were not passed by the BOR. Leters were sent by the BOR to the Scouts on what it would take (or look like) for them to come to the BOR and pass in three months.

For the Scouts who did not make it to the BOR because they were not able to have signed off living in the Scouting Spirit, I met with the parents and Scout to explain what it would look like for this to be signed off in three months.

It took time (one year) for a few of the Scouts to finally get it and advance to the next rank. However, the Troop is running better and more Boy Lead than in the past.

I feel you pain in getting there. Time will help and the Scouts starting living in the Scouting Spirit.

[maricopasem]

Scoutaholic... Being LDS myself, I have a little different viewpoint and approach here. Beyond those comments already provided, here's what else you could do:

1. Time to have a meeting with the YMP and BYC (minus the YW). Since this will likely include the members of your PLC, this should easily include all the necessary members of the various patrols. Explain that this behavior is unacceptable, lay out a game plan for future consequences, and put it all out on the table for their action.

2. Have a meeting with the parents. Explain to them what's going on, and put together a schedule for one or two of them to attend each week. After a period of time where these young men are getting treated like Cubs, they'll hopefully get their act together.

3. Invite the B2C to attend the weekly meeting. Maybe even have the B attend. See if this doesn't put a damper on the rowdiness.

4. Have a chat with your ASM who is putting LL ahead of his calling. Explain that he has more than just his son depending on him, and maybe have his wife share some of the LL duties. Maybe put together a schedule with both ASMs to establish responsibility of coverage so LL ASM can still be with that son and yet not leave you in the lurch.

5. Confiscate all extracurricular materials at the start of the meeting. Said items are not returned until after the meeting has been closed.

I realize some of these go against the "boy-run, boy-led" concept, but sometimes when BRBL is not working, the adults need to step in and steady the ark.

Amen. Where's B2C? And don't just talk in a COH. Ask the B if you can have the issues expressed in PH and RS Opening Exercises. Telling the moms in RS that we're keeping the skateboards and Ipods or that we're calling them to pick up their boy if there's a problem has done wonders.

[fritz1255]

I am not LDS, and don't know what the constraints are, but..... It sounds like many of the boys are being forced to come to meetings by their parents, and don't want to be there in the first place. If that is true, you are really stuck in the middle of a very bad situation. Sounds like some of the same nonsense I had to put up with when I was a Den Leader in Cub Scouts. Some of the boys were there only because their parents thought the program would be "good for them". These kids eventually dropped out, and things got MUCH better. While I hate to advocate kids leaving Scouting, the program is not for everybody, and like life, work, and everywhere else, 80% of all problems are caused by about 20% of the people.

I would go ahead and follow many of the suggestions above to try to remedy the situation - lots of good suggestions there. If things don't improve significantly and soon, you need to consider walking away from the situation. Sounds like many if not most of the boys aren't getting much out of the program anyways, and it's not worth your time and potential ulcers to continue. You are supposed to be a leader, but it sounds like you are being treated like a babysitter.