When to seek help on short-timer

[VenturingL]

I have read with great interest everything I can find here and on National's website on definition of "Active", troops requiring a minimum number of meetings and/or campouts, troops adding to other requirements, etc. Here is my son's situation:
It took him over a year to go from First Class to Star. He served as Treasurer for his Venturing Crew. Troop refused to accept it because they didn't witness it. My son had a letter from Crew Advisor listing everything he did. He was also serving as a Patrol Leader during this time, but because of competition marching band schedule, could not make Monday night meetings in the fall - so not the "required" number of meetings. He did go on the campouts in the fall, and actually planned the September campout. the Advisor & I attended the Feb. 2007 Committee Meeting to specifically address their lack of accepting leadership from Venturing. Troop's Eagle Mentor looked at handbook, annouced it was "in the book" & he wasn't arguing with National. But the committee wanted guidelines created and continued the delay. Finally, he was told they would sign it off, but because he used it for Star, he would not be allowed to use same position again (they knew he had been elected to a second term). At this point, my son chose to wait one more month until he had "enough" meetings to meet their rules so he could use Treasurer of Crew for Leadership for Life. He made Life this past February. Sorry for the extremely long background, but without it the question the next part won't make sense. His Scout Master has announced at the last 2 Troop meetings that unless a scout has a page from the Troop's rule book signed by a parent and the scout, AND the scout has had his "leadership record" signed each week by his mentor, he will NOT get leadership signed off (also 2 signatures for leadership; 3 if going for Eagle). My son & I have not signed the form because it spells out the number of meetings & campouts required. My son ages out in October of this year. He said last night that if he had the time to find another troop, he would. He knows he could Eagle through Venturing, but it would be brand new territory for the Crew Leadership. He wants the Troop to follow National, not their own harder than required rules. He also fears retaliation from the leadership in the form of delaying sign offs & aging out before he Eagles. When do we ask help from District, Council, National? I am proud of him for standing for what he knows is right & wanting to make it right for the scouts younger than him so they don't face the same thing.

[jr56]

It sounds to me that the easiest way out of this mess, is to forget the troop altogether, and continue on in the Venture Crew. As you have already stated, he is aware that he can finish in the crew, so just do it.
Trying to fight that Scoutmaster who is making up his own rules as he goes, is just going to lead to nothing but grief.

[wagionvigil]

Unless you make some phone calls to your Council executive the troop will not change. Tell tyhe CE you plan on pushing this to National if necessary. Give him a time frame like 10 days to clear this up and then start calling National. I am conerned with a couple of things like " Mentor" What is that? Who is the CO for this Troop? It is probably too late for your son so I would suggest he finish his Eagle Through the Crew.Again you have not put your Council Name in the Location in your Profile. This really helps us in helping you.

[VenturingL]

Circle Ten Council, TX - it shows in the "Author" column

[wagionvigil]

WHo Charters this Unit? They need to be made aware of what is going on.
Is there an active Troop Committee or just yes men and women for the SM? They have over ride authority. YOu are close to the National Office at leaet closer than I am I would think nothing of driving a couple hundred miles to make this individuals life miserable

[milominderbinder2]

"Active" is really simple.

A unit can only recharter "Active" members. When they sign the recharter paperwork they are attesting that the members listed are active. So if a Scout is listed on the recharter, he was active in the unit. Otherwise the unit leaders and unit commission have lied in writing. This is explained clearly in the Unit Commissioners books.

Likewise the Scoutmasters Handbook gives clear direction to the Scoutmaster on positions of responsibility. While the Scout may have been elected or appointed to a position, the Scoutmaster has the right at any time to remove any Scout from any position of responsibility at any time. If the Scout is not performing his duties, the Scoutmaster is to counsel the Scout. If the Scout continues to not performing in his duties, the Scoutmaster has an obligation to replace the Scout in the position.

If you son was on the recharter, he was an active member.

If your son was not removed from a position of responsibility, he was by definition serving adequately in that position.

Your unit is making up it's own program that is not the BSA program. You really need to decide if you are willing to teach your son that the rules don't matter, just what other people say. And how far you are willing to go if you have to make them do the right thing.

You now are at a cross-roads with several options.

1. Follow the non-BSA rules. Teach that lesson.

2. Try to work with them. Get your own copy of the Scoutmaster Handbook and Advancement Policies #33088 ($3.99 at your Council Service Center). Show them what the BSA says. Ask if the Scoutmaster and you can call Bill Steele at National together.

3. Have your son do his advancement through the Crew.

4. Last resort: Start calling up the ladder through your District Advancement Chair, Council Advancement Chair, Charter Organization Rep, Unit Commission, District Executive, and finally your Council Scout Executive. Ask for help. If this fails, your son asks for his Scoutmaster Conference and Board of review in writing, asking for a written response. If either are denied, follow the appeal process on page 33 of the #33088. Your first appeal is to the district. Second is to Council. Third is to National.

Your troop will lose badly if this goes to National.

Maybe print this forum and give it to them.

- Craig

[Mrw]

I can understand wanting to fix the issues in the troop and you will be doing other boys a favor too.

If I were you, while I work to change the troop's extra rules, I would counsel my son to finish the Eagle through the Crew. Yes, it is new territory for the Crew, but they can learn and it is not all that difficult.

Finding a new troop is still an option. We had a boy do that a year or two ago. He transferred as he was getting started with his Eagle project in February. He earned his Eagle in November, about a week before his 18th birthday and he has stayed on as an ASM. Great kid and we are just sorry he waited so long to join us!

[smtroop168]

The Troop is adding to the requirements in violation of BSA policy. My recommendation is to inform the Troop CC and COR that you are going to your District Advancement Committee. October is not that far away. Your son must not delay and continue all efforts to get all requirements completed as soon as possible. Has he started his Eagle Leadership Project yet? While the debate over his leadership position is sad, if he doesn't have all his MBs and Project done, the chance of getting any kind of waiver is nil.

The definition of active is "registered". This doesn't sit well with lots of leaders and some don't like that you can work on Eagle outside of a troop. I can understand some of that as we like the younger guys to look up to Eagles and if they are not "active", it's harder to show the young guys what they can achieve. They also have a hard time with signing off Scout Spirit when they don't see the scout on a routine basis. Also Ventures are not really set up to handle this so it's foreign to them (don't shoot me Jerry) and may not understand the process and don't want to be accused of messing it up.

[VenturingL]

I need to give a little additional info - he IS active in the troop as well as the Venturing Crew. He has been serving as a Troop Guide this year. He is meeting with 2 organizations this weekend to make final decision on the Eagle Project. He has a adult who has worked with many boys in the past on Eagles, is an Eagle & 2 sons who Eagled, already working with him. (this man VOLUNTEERED - my son didn't even have to ask). My son was elected President of the Crew & will serve until the end of the calendar year in that role. We told him he could Eagle through Crew a year ago, but he really wanted to do it through Troop - They have name plaques on the wall & I thinkit's important to him to have his name up there also. + A Scout is Loyal, etc. I will purchase the suggested book & talk with their CC - I think all this is being driven by primarily 2 people; one has been with the Troop for a very long time & is extremely respected (Advancement Chair) and the other is very intimidating (Scout Master).

[WVBeaver05]

As has already been discussed:

Yes, he is active
Yes, his POR was done
Yes, the Troop is violating the rules

So, what is left? Well, I suggest that you (and he) start challenging these things right now and not stop until they are corrected. Why? Because he doesn't have much time and those not following the rules could slow down the process to the point that he can't complete it.

Why else? Because (IMHO) you and he have a responsibility to address this for the benefit of other current and future Scouts in the Troop. I know this is arguable, but the situation is there and can clearly be presented to require correction.

Could he just get through and leave it? Sure! But, is that what we expect of our Eagle Scouts?

Just my thoughts.

YiS

[OldGreyBear]

have him quit the Troop and make Eagle in the Crew, let the Troop think the Crew is "stealing" their boys, let the troop die, its what they deserve

[RWSmith]

VenturingL,

You and your son are doing the right thing. (I wouldn't sign that SM's crap either.)

If your son has held ANY combination of ANY period(s) of ANY of the following positions, Troop or Crew, for a combined total of six months, beginning the day following his Life BOR, then he has met the requirement:

• Boy Scout Troop. Patrol Leader, Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, Troop Guide, Order of the Arrow Troop Representative, Den Chief, Scribe, Librarian, Historian, Quartermaster, Junior Assistant Scoutmaster, Chaplain Aide, or Instructor. (Also, Venture Patrol Leader, as it can be found on the 2008 (and previous) Eagle Scout Rank Application.)
• Varsity Scout Team. Captain, Co-captain, Program Manager, Squad Leader, Team Secretary, Order of the Arrow Team Representative, Librarian, Quartermaster, Chaplain Aide, Instructor, or Den Chief.
• Venturing Crew/Ship. President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer, Boatswain, Boatswain's Mate, Yeoman, Purser, or Storekeeper. (Also, Historian, Quartermaster and Guide, as they can be found on the 2008 Eagle Scout Rank Application.)

...regardless of what the SM says. Period. (You just can't overlap serving dual or multiple positions to shorten the six months.) The SM can NOT pick and choose; nor can he refuse to approve your son's work. If he does, go to the CC and get him/her to sign it off. (The CC can sign anything in lieu of the SM.) If he/she refuses, take it to the DACC, then the DE, then the SE, then National. Push. Push back hard. don't take no for an answer. Just be respectful, of course. (Seems to me, this SM is gunning for you or your son... i.e., it's a power struggle. But, as stated in previous posts, he's wrong.) Now, he either knows better, or he doesn't. If you can educate him, fine. If he refuses, then go over his head and up the chain until you get it resolved to your satisfaction. Rest assured, your son will get credit for time served in his PORs... maybe not a waiver, per se, but certainly he will be given the opportunity to make it right.

Just keep documenting your grievances.

Also, the SM (or CA) should (actually, must) always accept verifiable documentation from any relaible source, esp. from another Scouter, as evidence-in-fact concerning any advancement issue. IOW, if the CA provided a letter stating your son was in POR for such-and-such period (after his Life BOR), then the SM is obligated to accept it. If there questions as to legitimacy, then it's up to the adults to sort it out. But, they can't refuse to accept it if it is what it is. You might consider running his Eagle Appl. though his Crew. This way, you can still fight the SM's ignorance (or whatever it is), and own your own terms. Plus, once he makes Eagle, there will still be no good reason why your son's name can't go up on that plaque at the Troop.

Regarding being "active"... The following is a direct quote from the National Council's (BSA) web site:

Question: For the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks, how is "Be active in your troop and patrol" defined?
Answer: A Scout is considered to be active in his unit if:


• He is registered in his unit (registration fees are current).
  
• He has not been dismissed from his unit for disciplinary reasons.
• He is engaged by his unit leadership on a regular basis (Scoutmaster conference, informs the Scout of upcoming unit activities, through personal contact, and so on).
The unit leaders are responsible for maintaining contact with the Scout on a regular basis. The Scout is not required to attend any certain percentage of activities or outings. However, unit leaders must ensure that he is fulfilling the obligations of his assigned leadership position. If he is not, then they should remove the Scout from that position.

Note, the resonsibilty to maintain contact is the Unit's leaders, NOT your son's. There are NO requirements for attendance, etc., nor may any be imposed. If your son wasn't removed from the POR, then the time counts. Period.

See also: http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1975

[Quailman]

Cut out this column and hand it to the SM at the next meeting. Explain to him who some of these people (who posted here) are. Then earn the Eagle through the Crew.

[wagionvigil]

I believe he is giving your son a hard time bcause he joined the crew. BSA needs to take a hard stand on leaders from troops that are anti Venturing. or make it a mandatory move.

[VenturingL]

I sent a polite, but very direct email to Committee Chair last night. Waiting on response. Yes, I agree, my son being in Venturing may be part of the issue - SM has made negative statements about girls being in a BSA program in the past.

[wagionvigil]

Those that cannot or will not adapt to the program must leave. Immediately!

[VenturingL]

The email I sent to CC: "As Committee Chair, you need to be made aware that requiring attendance at a specific number meetings or campouts is in violation of National. I have a printout from National's website; I am going to get a copy of Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures this weekend. The forms that Mr. XXXX has stressed at the last 2 meetings are also not requirements set by National. Making rules that are above & beyond what National BSA rules are has been a long standing tradition in Troop XX, but it is wrong. It needs to be addressed and corrected. I was advised to contact you first, and escalate if needed."

I just received an email from the SM. He said, "...if you have burr under your saddle, please start attending the committee meetings. National provides guidelines for Troops to follow but does not tell Troops how to do their job. The committee provides guidelines to the adult leaders so that we can insure a quality and consistency of our program. If you do not agree with these requirements, you have choices and the right to voice your opinion in the committee meetings. This particular instance has not changed and is part of the original requirements that Troop XX has been using for longer than I or you have been involved in the troop." (I copied & pasted my & his emails here)

[wagionvigil]

Time to rattle the door. Call your Council Service center and talk to the CE NOW!!!

[smtroop168]

There are guidelines and there are policies. Troops can have guidelines on how their troops operate (when to wear which uniform, campout rules/behavior/what's allowed, meeting times, COHs, care of troop gear etc.) . We have a Standard Operating Procedures Document we give all scouts that has many references back to National's policies (rank advancement, MB process, insurance, etc). Does your troop have a written document or is it folklore? Two things is for sure, you cannot add to advancement requirements or require attendnance The troop will lose any appeal on this and peeling back the onion, could lead to more and unpleasant consequences for the unit. The Chartered Partner also need to be informed and engaged as the CE may call them.

[wagionvigil]

VenturingL
Are you willing to bring this troop down for the sake of your son and any future scouts? I would hope the answer is yes. I will tell you right now your son will need to finish his Egel with the crew so just start the process.
But please, please do not allow this injustice to continue.