I Want to Fire Our SPL

[Billiken]

Our SPL is a very nice and polite 13-year old Star Scout.
(There's only two others older in the troop and they're 14/Life.)
However, if he was one of my employees, I'd fire him for failure to complete duties assigned......

He has:

1. Missed the last campout - focus/program was the 6 new Scouts.
SPL cancelled 6 days prior - music competition date was changed.
All work was dumped into the ASPL's lap.

2. Missed last Saturday's Good Turn Service Project.
Organizing the scouts/adults into teams was done by ASPL.
ADDED: SPL never RSVPed and did not show up.

3. Just told me he'll be 6 or so hours late on the Sunday we arrive at summer camp. His flight home from music camp gets in at 2:30 p.m.
This is a very big deal because we camp in our own tents and cook our own food. He'll miss check-in, the SPL meeting, and swim check.
Now the loading/departure, check-in, and camp set-up falls into the ASPL's lap (with 9 of our 14 scouts first-year campers).

So the SPL will show up around 6:00 p.m. on Sunday after everything is set up.
He'll get to be the SPL for the rest of the week.

Here's the problem, if he's removed from the SPL slot, the ASPL would be in charge.
The ASPL is my son.
No matter what I or my SAs say...the boys will think favoritism.

I'm going to have a Scoutmaster Conference with the SPL.
Perhaps he'll come to the conclusion that he should step down.
(He has completed the 6 months as SPL needed for Life.)

Any thoughts?

[spl08]

Before I say anything, I want it to say that we never really know the full story. You (Billiken) may have left something out un-intentionally, but here is what I think based off of the information given.

My SPL is a very nice and polite 13-year old Star Scout.
(There's only two others older in the troop and they're 14/Life.)

Sorry to go PC on you, but please don't say "my" SPL. If you want me to elaborate, I will do so later, but I think you get the idea.

1. Missed the last campout - focus/program was the 6 new Scouts.
SPL cancelled 6 days prior - music competition date was changed.
All work was dumped into the ASPL's lap.

If I were the SM, I'd completely be able to understand that. He was initially planning on going, but the date was suddenly changed. I somehow get the feeling that the music competition is pretty important and if for school could potentially affect his grade (and of course, school always comes first). Even if it wasn't, he has a committment to his music group just as he does his scout troop. In this case, he had some trustworthy scouts (the ASPLs) to fill in for him and take care of the campout. I get the feeling he couldn't have somebody replace him in the music competition (btw, what kind of music competition was it?), and even if he could, it could greatly hinder his ability to be allowed to go next time if he suddenly skipped out of it. Scouting is very important, but scouts have other things to do just as adults do.
And was the work "dumped" or was it delegated? There can be a difference. If it was "dumped" he didn't notify the proper people and they more than likely found out about it when gathering to go to the site. If it was delegated, then this scout called/talked to ASPL almost instantly after hanging up the phone with you to ask one to replace him.
I wouldn't be mad at this scout at all in this situation. It sounds like he told you what was happening as soon as he found out and took the appropriate action to have somebody replace him for the event. I would EXPECT that from a good leader, and so far it sounds like he's doing the appropriate things.

2. Missed last Saturday's Good Turn Service Project.

Why?

3. Just told me he'll be 6 or so hours late on the Sunday we arrive at summer camp. His flight home from music camp gets in at 2:30 p.m.
This is a very big deal because we camp in our own tents and cook our own food. He'll miss check-in, the SPL meeting, and swim check.
Now the loading/departure, check-in, and camp set-up falls into the ASPL's lap (with 9 of our 14 scouts first-year campers).

Again, he has absolutly no control over when his flight comes in. He can't go banging on the cockpit door screaming "speed it up! i've got a campout to get to!" however, he can talk to the ASPLs to make sure that they know what's going on and what to take care of, and that is most definetly something he should do. Again, I don't know the whole story of this kid's life, but so far he sounds like a smart and trustworthy scout that may have already done this or is planning to very soon.

So the SPL will show up around 6:00 p.m. on Sunday after everything is set up.
He'll get to be the SPL for the rest of the week.

If this camp is like other camps across the nation, that week will most certainly have it's challenges to go along with it. I'd also find it hard to believe that the tear-down of the camp is a piece of cake; possibly even harder than the set-up.

Here's the problem, if he's removed from the SPL slot, the ASPL would be in charge.
The ASPL is my son.
No matter what I or my SAs say...the boys will think favoritism.

I definetly can see favoritism accusations happening.

However, if he was one of my employees, I'd fire him for failure to complete duties assigned......

Well, unless he just flat out did nothing, sounds like he's doing pretty well. He told you the issues as soon as he could, and it kind of sounds like he delegated correctly. In a work environment, if you suddenly can't make it to work on a day you were assigned and you find a friend to work for you, everything is just fine and everybody is happy. If you knew of it in advance and simply neglected to say anything until the absoulte last second before you work, that's a different story, and it would similarly be a different story in a scouting version of such an instance (such as the one you seem to be describing).

So far I'm having a hard time seeing anything wrong with what this scout is doing. He actually sounds pretty smart for 13-year old scout who is more than likely pretty new to being an SPL.

[Billiken]

I somehow get the feeling that the music competition is pretty important and if for school could potentially affect his grade (and of course, school always comes first). Even if it wasn't, he has a committment to his music group just as he does his scout troop.

In this case, he had some trustworthy scouts (the ASPLs) to fill in for him and take care of the campout. I get the feeling he couldn't have somebody replace him in the music competition (btw, what kind of music competition was it?), and even if he could, it could greatly hinder his ability to be allowed to go next time if he suddenly skipped out of it.

It was an individual classical piano competition.
First place paid $500. (He did well but did not win any $$.)
He is home schooled.

It sounds like he told you what was happening as soon as he found out and took the appropriate action to have somebody replace him for the event. I would EXPECT that from a good leader, and so far it sounds like he's doing the appropriate things.

His mother told me when I saw her at the grocery store.
He never called me or the ASPL.

Again, he has absolutly no control over when his flight comes in. He can't go banging on the cockpit door screaming "speed it up! i've got a campout to get to!" however, he can talk to the ASPLs to make sure that they know what's going on and what to take care of, and that is most definetly something he should do.

His flight home was booked within the last couple of weeks.
We've had our camp fees paid since March.

I actually had to ask him about Sunday.....
His mother asked another parent to drive him to camp later that Sunday(about 2 hours away). That parent said no (she did not want her son to be late) and told me about it.

I'd also find it hard to believe that the tear-down of the camp is a piece of cake; possibly even harder than the set-up.

huh?

Heading to camp takes two days of prep.
We CAMP...sleep in our own tents and cook our own food.
Buying food (keeping perishables refrigerated until we get to camp).
Full/complete inventory and check of troop camping and cooking gear.
Loading troop and personal gear into troop trailer.


Coming home: After cold breakfast on Saturday, we can break camp, load the trailer, police the area, and check out in less than 2 hours.

So far I'm having a hard time seeing anything wrong with what this scout is doing. He actually sounds pretty smart for 13-year old scout who is more than likely pretty new to being an SPL.

(He has completed the 6 months as SPL needed for Life.)

[Mrw]

From the perspective of a 13 year old, if Mom told you in the grocery store, then he would figure he does not need to call as you already know.

And I would bet he was not asked about whether a late flight home would interfere or if he cared.

It sounds like Mom is not helping with the prioritizing of things. I don't want to anger anyone, but my experience with other home-schooled kids is that they tend not to put as much emphasis on the teamwork part of being in a group as many other people do.

If he is trying to function at other times like a responsible SPL, then talk to him about how you need for him to call you and the ASPL himself when he will be absent. And about how you need him to help the troop prepare for summer camp so the set-up can run fairly smoothly without him.

I would give him the opportunity to correct his mis-steps before asking him to step down.

[WVBeaver05]

I agree with MRW.

Discussion reviewing the expectations (and reasons for them) is definately in order. I would treat it as a learning experience/opportunity.

Also, (in most cases) if he is really dumping his responsibilities, even the younger Scouts will be noticing and they often (in my experience) correct the issue at the next election (or, maybe the one after that). They do pay attention and do "better" than we often give them credit for. But, we do have to let them see the results for themselves and sometimes they don't see it (or perhaps don't act) as quickly as we would.

YiS

[Chief J]

I don't think you are up to the firing part yet. I believe a SM Conference/counseling sessin is appropriate.

If he has committed to the position, but is not fulfilling that commitment, I believe you need to meet with the individual and provide clear specific expectations of the position. If he is unable to commit to these expectations, give him the chance to evaluate and possibly resign if need be.

It is not hard, nor is it uncommon for our young leaders to overextend themselves and not be able to do a quality job for anybody. Remember, it is the primary role of the SM to train the SPL - if he needs trained - provide the opportunity.

Chief J

[lifescoutforlife]

You said he has completed 6 months a SPL, don't you have elections every 6 months?

[evmori]

Here's my take on this.

If this Scout is this busy, he should never have been the SPL. The SPL needs to be there & Scouting should be his top priority. Apparently it isn't for this Scout.

Now, you posted he has completed his time in position for rank. And based on that statement I am guessing you will be signing him off for that requirement EVEN THOUGH he did not meet up to you expectations. Where these expectations discussed prior to this Scout considering the position?

I firmly believe 13 year olds just don't see the complete picture or even understand how things fit together. If they did, scenarios like these wouldn't be happening with the frequency they do.

I wouldn't fire him. I would hold a new election & let him know he is not eligible to run since he doesn't have the time needed to put into the job.

[smtroop168]

Okay...you don't really want to fire the SPL you are frustrated with a 13 year old. Join the crowd. If your goal is for him to leave BSA, then you will certainly achieve it. You're about to head out to Summer Camp with a large number of new scouts and there are many moving parts most of which the SPL has no control over. Missing events, poor communications etc albeit frustrating are all part of a "boy led" organization. Instead of viewing this as dumping on the ASPL, this is an opportuntity for him to step up to the plate and show some real leadership. He will learn more from this than being in fear of being fired if he messes up.

I took over a troop that was very young and the SM had been removed for lack of any program, advancement and/or activities. My SPL was the really the only senior scout (16) we had, very unsure of himself and had no leadership training. I had to go out of town and while I was gone the scout dropped a few balls and the COR wanted to "write him off" and fire him. The Pastor eventually "wrote off the COR" and had him removed from the scouting program. The scout was given training and eventually became an Eagle Scout.

Best of luck.

[WeeWillie]

Unless he deceived you I don't see removing him as an option. We all learn from our experiences. That includes SMs. I had a similar experience and sucked it up. Now, I meet with SPL / PL candidates and explain to them their requirements for the position (SPL or PL Handbook). I ask them to about their other commitments to see if there are conflicts with our annual program and try to mitigate them. If there is just no way, I remind them of their responsibility to the troop is no less than their responsibility to their other committments.

1/3 of my Scouts are in band. We try to block out major band events or remain closer to home for our events so they can show up late or leave early. Ditto for other major activities such as Homecoming, Prom, SAT and SM wife's birthday.

However, if they aren't willing to go to their coach, faculty advisor, or bandmaster for concessions, then don't come to me.

You lead by example, and if you aren't there, you aren't leading.

My Scouts understand this. Some parents with unrealistic expectations are another issue.

Building Character, not resumes.

[maricopasem]

It sounds like Mom is not helping with the prioritizing of things.

A curious statement. Are you suggesting that this family's priorities are out of order? Are you suggesting that Scouting should be the top priority over his music? (Or sports, or whatever) Is it fair to expect a young man and his family to place Scouting in a position of preeminence over everything else? Thankfully my employment doesn't have that same level of expectation of me. Even though I made a commitment (by contract) to them, I can miss work if I'm sick or my kids are sick or even to attend the FBR Open last year.

And speaking to the original post -- the kid is only 13. I'd think you may want to cut him some slack. You're a teacher of young men, not an office manager.

[Mrw]

It sounds like Mom is not helping with the prioritizing of things.

A curious statement. Are you suggesting that this family's priorities are out of order? Are you suggesting that Scouting should be the top priority over his music? (Or sports, or whatever) Is it fair to expect a young man and his family to place Scouting in a position of preeminence over everything else?

I am not suggesting that scouting should be held as the top priority over everything else.

But if the boy is going to an away music camp, nearly all camp programs end on Saturdays so the next session can start on Sunday. It seems likely that she could have scheduled his flight home accordingly, so that he could be ready for camp at the same time as the troop. Especially if she were then going to ask another parent to wait until long after the bulk of the troop had left so her son could get a ride to camp from someone else.

As far as the boys having elected someone who is missing activities, this is a lesson for all the boys. They should learn to be more selective about the leaders they choose AND they should learn that they need to be able to make the commitment to be there if they are going to run for a position.

[Quailman]

I don't think any of us are in a position to judge whether or not this boy's or family's priorities are in line with our own. Perhaps to get a better airfare the SPL had to stay over a Saturday night. We don't know.

I'm in the camp that says cut him some slack. This is a learning experience for everyone. Come the next election, the boys in the troop will know who stepped up when needed. After all, isn't that part of the job description of an ASPL?

[pipestone1991]

Our SPL is a very nice and polite 13-year old Star Scout.
(There's only two others older in the troop and they're 14/Life.)
However, if he was one of my employees, I'd fire him for failure to complete duties assigned......

He has:

1. Missed the last campout - focus/program was the 6 new Scouts.
SPL cancelled 6 days prior - music competition date was changed.
All work was dumped into the ASPL's lap.
Completely understandable. Kids do other things.
2. Missed last Saturday's Good Turn Service Project.
Organizing the scouts/adults into teams was done by ASPL.
ADDED: SPL never RSVPed and did not show up.
He should be held responsable for this.
3. Just told me he'll be 6 or so hours late on the Sunday we arrive at summer camp. His flight home from music camp gets in at 2:30 p.m.
This is a very big deal because we camp in our own tents and cook our own food. He'll miss check-in, the SPL meeting, and swim check.
Now the loading/departure, check-in, and camp set-up falls into the ASPL's lap (with 9 of our 14 scouts first-year campers).
*Shrugs* Tyhings happen. The ASPL should be in positon to deal with this.
So the SPL will show up around 6:00 p.m. on Sunday after everything is set up.
He'll get to be the SPL for the rest of the week.

Here's the problem, if he's removed from the SPL slot, the ASPL would be in charge.
The ASPL is my son.
No matter what I or my SAs say...the boys will think favoritism.

I'm going to have a Scoutmaster Conference with the SPL.
Perhaps he'll come to the conclusion that he should step down.
(He has completed the 6 months as SPL needed for Life.)
Forcing him out will only create a problem I'm afraid.

[milominderbinder2]

As I think about this, I have more questions than answers.

Have you met with the 13 year old SPL and clearly discussed his responsibilities? How often?

He has been in the job 6 months? I am using my limited psychic powers here but six months ago did your son also run for SPL? And did your son run for ASPL again this time and lose to him again? Or not run against him because he knew the SPL would win?

Reaching way out here, is it possible your son is one of the 14 year old Life Scouts you mention? I ask because I would have expected you just to say that the SPL is one of the oldest and highest ranked Scouts.

You wanted us to know that the 13 year old SPL was home schooled. I am not sure how that impacts his performance as an SPL. Why is that important?

You mentioned that he was competing for $500. Why is that important?

If his mom sees you at the grocery store and tells you he has had a conflict come up six days ahead of time, you feel that he still needed to call you as well? Did you tell her that?

Have you asked him or his mom why they booked the flight they did? I have had times where a different flight might have cost hundreds of dollars more. Was this the first flight they could get after the music was done? Did they need to stay over another day to get a lower rate?

- Craig

[FieldSports]

A. If he was an employee, ask your self if your boss would fire him or you? Have you done your job? It is our job to support and enable success.

B. How much time do you spend with the ASPL (son) talking about how things should be run, how to plan, how to lead, how to teach. Now how much time have you spent with the SPL?

C. You can not fire a SPL, Boy run = Boys vote for removal

D. Doesn't sound like the boys have issues with leadership. ASPL job is to back up SPL

E. Conference is great idea. First question from me would be "Can you help me communicate with you more?"

[scouter01]

Seems rather biased, you can't except scouting to be the top priority.

[spl08]

You wanted us to know that the 13 year old SPL was home schooled. I am not sure how that impacts his performance as an SPL. Why is that important?

I had origianlly stated that the music competition could be especially important because it could be for a grade in a class or to help his school band/group do well in the competition. Because he is home-schooled, the competition doesn't effect anybody but the scout.

You mentioned that he was competing for $500. Why is that important?

Again, it goes back to my post; it further explains the reason for the competition.

If his mom sees you at the grocery store and tells you he has had a conflict come up six days ahead of time, you feel that he still needed to call you as well? Did you tell her that?

If I understand correctly, his point was more that it was the mother who told him and not the scout. Now, unless the family had just found out, and the scout was busy trying to get ahold of the SM and the mom went out to get groceries while he was doing this and just happened to be at the same store at the same time, the scout should have contacted the SM earlier. Had the mother not told him, when, if ever, would the scout have told him?

Have you asked him or his mom why they booked the flight they did? I have had times where a different flight might have cost hundreds of dollars more. Was this the first flight they could get after the music was done? Did they need to stay over another day to get a lower rate?

All very legitamte questions.

For the most part, I still stand where I did before, except it definetly sounds like scout should have done a better job of communicating.

At some point earlier, it was mentioned how the SPL needs to make the troop a top priority. This is true. However, in situations such as the one that this troop is in, you have to go with what you've got. The scouts just seem to have decided that this scout was the best choice.

[evmori]

Seems rather biased, you can't except scouting to be the top priority.

Why not?

[kwildman]

Seems rather biased, you can't except scouting to be the top priority.

Why not?

Scouting is only one aspect (albeit an important one) in the development of our young men. I have 5 scouts playing football, 3 playing soccer, 1 cross country/track, and some in marching band. These kids are also involved in Young Life and other religous youth groups as well. If I told them that Scouting had to be their top priority I would lose over half the troop, many of which are our strongest scouts. It is rare for us to have all scouts present at any given event. These challenges are learning opprotunities and the kids spend a lot of time working outside of meetings to figure out how to cover for each other.

As leaders, we need to make scouting work for all youth. The adult leader's job is too mentor and develop youth leadership. Look at the troop structure chart and I would say that a poor performing SPL is refelctive of the person he reports to. Some boys will need more work than others. I think most boys want to do a good job but need to be shown how and like us need to learn from their mistakes.

Kevin