EBOR Delay

Information to help with the rank of Eagle Scout.

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Postby mhjacobson » Fri May 16, 2008 12:13 am

It is not the responsibility of the CE to know everything that the council advancement committee is doing, it is the responsibility of the whichever professional is a laision to the committee. Believe it or not the advancement committee is a volunteer-run committee.

As to the solution to the problem -- I would not 'threaten' the CE or anyone with 'going to national,' as that is not the way to solve problems. There are the usual steps up the chain to deal with:

1) the council advancement committee chair, tell that person the problem
2) the council VP for Programs (the 'boss of #1)
3) the council president
4) then the council executive

usually #1 or #2 will have the problem solved in a jiffy and without the 'threats' that only serve to get people entrenched in their position.
50 year+ scouter -- have held almost all adult leader positions in Cubs, Scouts, & Venturing, currently serving as Council Scouting for Youth with Disabilities Chair.
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Postby wagionvigil » Fri May 16, 2008 8:08 am

Most of those have been contacted as far as we all know
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Postby ASM-142 » Fri May 16, 2008 12:24 pm

Being that the CE had been previously contacted related to this issue it is his/her responsibility to stay abreast of the situation until it is resolved.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby aflmom » Tue May 20, 2008 3:53 pm

Yesterday our son had a phone call from the guy he's been having problems with that rescheduled his EBOR. He wanted to know about his reference letters because he hadn't received any. Our son explained he had them sent to his home (they're in a sealed envelope) rather than to the church where they may get misplaced.

Out of the four people he contacted last week, per the guy saying he needed the letters before his EBOR, he received two. Personally, I don't think that's bad. The other people may be out of town or not had time to write them yet.

Today, he gets another call asking about the letters and the guy wanting to know if he received any more. It went to our son's voice mail, and he hasn't called back. In addition, the guy said something to the effect that my husband and I also need to write a letter????

Just when we think we're almost done....Surely there are provisions for the EBOR being done by another council if need be????
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Postby smtroop168 » Tue May 20, 2008 4:05 pm

The parents are listed as the first one of the references on the Eagle Application. Others are Religious, Educational, Employer (if any) and two others. The scout's responsibility is to provide the names not track down the refs (at leadt in our council)

I'm still amazed at this whole situation.
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Postby ASM-142 » Tue May 20, 2008 4:39 pm

aflmom wrote:... In addition, the guy said something to the effect that my husband and I also need to write a letter????

Just when we think we're almost done...

You can write in your letter how you son handled working with difficult adults that intentionally ignore the rules on his road to Eagle.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby aflmom » Tue May 20, 2008 7:52 pm

ASM-142 wrote:You can write in your letter how you son handled working with difficult adults that intentionally ignore the rules on his road to Eagle.


Actually that's a great idea!

I just finished a rough draft and the theme is my son's perseverance through the adversity (with examples) that he encountered in scouting. I didn't give names, but I did go into detail. Do you guys think that's too harsh or will be ok? Or is it inappropriate? I'd be glad to post it, but it's two pages.
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Postby wagionvigil » Tue May 20, 2008 7:56 pm

post it!
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Postby aflmom » Tue May 20, 2008 8:19 pm

Here's hoping the formatting came out decent!


May 20, 2007
Reference Letter: Andrew -------
To: Eagle Scout Board of Review

As Andrew’s parents, we know Andrew more intimately than any other person. His road to Eagle has not been an easy one. In fact, it has been filled with adversity. On numerous occasions we wanted Andrew to withdraw from the troop, but he preserved in spite of the lack of support. The following are examples of his determination not to quit.

When Andrew first started scouts in 2004, he commented that it was one of the few times where he felt accepted in a group setting. He felt like the troop was an extended family, and that it was a safe environment where he could be himself. He felt it was okay to make mistakes, learn from them, and move on. However, that didn’t last long.

Although he set goals to obtain merit badges and advance through the ranks, he had problems finding merit badge counselors, and no one was available to walk him through the process. His first merit badge was obtained in Tampa at a USF Engineer camp. He continued to look for opportunities to obtain merit badges and advance through the ranks. Even advancement did not come easily. He had problems scheduling times with a counselor to get checked off. He was discouraged from advancing and told he needed to slow down.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

One of the few highlights of his scouting experience was when Gail ----- asked him to help teach some of the badges and said she wanted to use his notebooks as an example. Because of her untimely and unfortunate death, that never materialized. However, he continued to move forward in working toward his goals.

Again, leaders in the troop told him he needed to slow down. They were concerned about other scouts and how they would feel with someone younger being a higher rank. In response, he shared he was going to college and wanted to work on his badges and eagle rank before school and his schedule became more difficult. Subsequently, three leaders met with Andrew and grilled him for almost 1 1/2 hours. He was exhausted when he came home and started crying. Basically, it boiled down to the following concerns:

1. Maturity to be an Eagle Scout
2. Social skills
3. Other scouts having a problem due to his age
4. Being a paper scout
5. Possibly not passing the Board of Review and looking bad for the troop.

Some of the things addressed included not rushing through scouts, enjoying the experience of scouting, having fun, making a fatal error and having to start all over again. At one point, one of the leaders thought the meeting was over and left and then came back and asked Andrew, "Are they still beating on you?"

When Andrew came home he told me that it was difficult to keep his face impassive because on the inside he was really upset. He didn't want his face to reflect his feelings, so he found a spot inside of his mouth and held his tongue against it to keep his face from moving and possibly grimacing or being disrespectful.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

As time went on, expectations were raised for Andrew. He commented once that when he went to scouts, he just wanted to be a kid. He didn’t want to be treated as a college student or have higher expectations placed on him.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Andrew started working on his eagle project in 2005. During that year he spoke with two different organizations and began the preliminary planning and write-up of his project. Although both organizations expressed interest in the project, neither one followed up. With much reluctance, and after speaking with a professor about the problem, he decided to move on.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Andrew’s last attempt with an eagle project was also fraught with adversity. He was given verbal permission to go ahead with the project only for it to create problems later. When the project was completed in December, he was told he had to change the dates of the volunteers and get another date from the sponsoring organization. He was told he had to take diagrams and receipts out his project book.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

In January his project was once again completed with the change in dates. He was told everything was being taken care of. In March, he still hadn’t heard back and kept attempting to follow up.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

In April, Andrew received a phone call and was yelled at because of people I had been contacting. His eagle board of review was scheduled for May 15. A week before the EBOR, Andrew received a call stating he needed references. The application said to list the names of people that would be willing to give a reference. It didn’t say to ask or contact the people for a reference. His EBOR was rescheduled without asking him if the date and time were convenient or if he had prior commitments.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Finally, the day drew closer for his EBOR. Two days before the scheduled event, he received yet another phone call asking if he had reference letters. In addition, he was told his parents needed to write one.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

The scouting experience and the trail to Eagle has not been an enjoyable one. It’s been stressful; it’s involved a lot of work, and there’s been a lot of conflict. Unfortunately, it became another ‘chore’ to be completed.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.
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Postby t305spl » Tue May 20, 2008 10:44 pm

Excellent! That is exactly what they need to read! And if for some ridiculous reason they decide not to pass him I can guarantee a few people on here(myself included) will raise some serious questions on several levels within the BSA.

He will pass though. He has really met the Leadership and Character requirements of passing an EBOR and becoming an Eagle Scout.

This may have seemed like a "chore", but I am sure the title of Eagle Scout will make him proud and will help him later in life when the going gets tough. All he will need to do is look back and see what he accomplished at such a young age with the hurdles, and he will know he can accomplish anything.
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Postby aflmom » Wed May 21, 2008 6:15 am

I hope you're right and that it's okay. I'm beginning to get worried since no one else has weighed in. I did add a couple more paragraphs.

In addition, being a project manager, while attempting to work with volunteers, created its own set of difficulties. Often the representative for the organization was unavailable to discuss details. When he did meet with Andrew, he wanted to start adding things to the plan. Andrew had to involve a higher representative in the project and send him copies of the correspondence.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

There were also problems coordinating the availability of the rental equipment needed for the project. The rental company was more than willing to help by donating their equipment. However, when it was available, the volunteered electrician wasn’t. This went on for months.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

I asked Andrew if he wanted to read it, but he didn't. If asked, he wanted to be able to honestly reply that he hadn't. He knows the general gist and just asked that I didn't use names.

I think it's going to be awhile before the title of Eagle Scout makes him proud. Right now he doesn't want a COH, but did say he may feel differently in a few months. In his mind, once the EBOR is over (assuming he passes), he's done. He won't be doing any more advancement work or even working on palms. He did say he wants to stay on in the troop to help the younger scouts.
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Postby cballman » Wed May 21, 2008 6:42 am

This is just like real life. little one is going to fast o lets slow him down and make him wait. well that has happened to many times over the years to way to many kids. now I just hope that your son wants to pass his EBOR. because the way you are talking about him I can see a little bit of me in him. I will pass that or I will just to show you that I can. if he stays around and helps out with the younger kids then I will be very proud to welcome to the rank of EAGLE. what I try to instill in my kids is that it is not just about YOU but what YOU can give back to the program and maybe mentor some other kids. when he has passed I expect to receive an email with his picture so that I can see what kind of little critter you have on your hands. :lol: :lol:
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed May 21, 2008 7:56 am

aflmom wrote:Here's hoping the formatting came out decent!


May 20, 2007
Reference Letter: Andrew -------
To: Eagle Scout Board of Review

As Andrew’s parents, we know Andrew more intimately than any other person. His road to Eagle has not been an easy one. In fact, it has been filled with adversity. On numerous occasions we wanted Andrew to withdraw from the troop, but he preserved in spite of the lack of support. The following are examples of his determination not to quit.

When Andrew first started scouts in 2004, he commented that it was one of the few times where he felt accepted in a group setting. He felt like the troop was an extended family, and that it was a safe environment where he could be himself. He felt it was okay to make mistakes, learn from them, and move on. However, that didn’t last long.

Although he set goals to obtain merit badges and advance through the ranks, he had problems finding merit badge counselors, and no one was available to walk him through the process. His first merit badge was obtained in Tampa at a USF Engineer camp. He continued to look for opportunities to obtain merit badges and advance through the ranks. Even advancement did not come easily. He had problems scheduling times with a counselor to get checked off. He was discouraged from advancing and told he needed to slow down.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

One of the few highlights of his scouting experience was when Gail ----- asked him to help teach some of the badges and said she wanted to use his notebooks as an example. Because of her untimely and unfortunate death, that never materialized. However, he continued to move forward in working toward his goals.

Again, leaders in the troop told him he needed to slow down. They were concerned about other scouts and how they would feel with someone younger being a higher rank. In response, he shared he was going to college and wanted to work on his badges and eagle rank before school and his schedule became more difficult. Subsequently, three leaders met with Andrew and grilled him for almost 1 1/2 hours. He was exhausted when he came home and started crying. Basically, it boiled down to the following concerns:

1. Maturity to be an Eagle Scout
2. Social skills
3. Other scouts having a problem due to his age
4. Being a paper scout
5. Possibly not passing the Board of Review and looking bad for the troop.

Some of the things addressed included not rushing through scouts, enjoying the experience of scouting, having fun, making a fatal error and having to start all over again. At one point, one of the leaders thought the meeting was over and left and then came back and asked Andrew, "Are they still beating on you?"

When Andrew came home he told me that it was difficult to keep his face impassive because on the inside he was really upset. He didn't want his face to reflect his feelings, so he found a spot inside of his mouth and held his tongue against it to keep his face from moving and possibly grimacing or being disrespectful.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

As time went on, expectations were raised for Andrew. He commented once that when he went to scouts, he just wanted to be a kid. He didn’t want to be treated as a college student or have higher expectations placed on him.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Andrew started working on his eagle project in 2005. During that year he spoke with two different organizations and began the preliminary planning and write-up of his project. Although both organizations expressed interest in the project, neither one followed up. With much reluctance, and after speaking with a professor about the problem, he decided to move on.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Andrew’s last attempt with an eagle project was also fraught with adversity. He was given verbal permission to go ahead with the project only for it to create problems later. When the project was completed in December, he was told he had to change the dates of the volunteers and get another date from the sponsoring organization. He was told he had to take diagrams and receipts out his project book.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

In January his project was once again completed with the change in dates. He was told everything was being taken care of. In March, he still hadn’t heard back and kept attempting to follow up.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

In April, Andrew received a phone call and was yelled at because of people I had been contacting. His eagle board of review was scheduled for May 15. A week before the EBOR, Andrew received a call stating he needed references. The application said to list the names of people that would be willing to give a reference. It didn’t say to ask or contact the people for a reference. His EBOR was rescheduled without asking him if the date and time were convenient or if he had prior commitments.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

Finally, the day drew closer for his EBOR. Two days before the scheduled event, he received yet another phone call asking if he had reference letters. In addition, he was told his parents needed to write one.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.

The scouting experience and the trail to Eagle has not been an enjoyable one. It’s been stressful; it’s involved a lot of work, and there’s been a lot of conflict. Unfortunately, it became another ‘chore’ to be completed.

In spite of the above, Andrew persevered.


Great letter.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby Mrw » Wed May 21, 2008 7:57 am

I did not read the whole letter, but what I did read sounded great.

I am glad that he still wants to help out the younger boys. He may have had it hard, but he (and you) has already probably ruffled enough feathers to make sure their way is a little more smoothly paved.

If I were him, I would make sure that Eagle Court of Honor is well publicized and so well attended to show all the naysayers that they are a minority in their lack of support.
Mother of two Eagles and troop Advancement Chair
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Postby aflmom » Wed May 21, 2008 10:44 am

Ugh! I just got off the phone with the committee chairperson re: the EBOR tonight. It started out pretty heated. He said he needed the reference letters (I have two in sealed envelopes), they shouldn't have been sent to us, that they need more than two, my husband also needs to do a letter (both of us will be signing the one I wrote), and on and on and that he's just trying to see things are done right. He's on Andrew's side, doesn't want to see him get turned down, he's been doing this for some 50+ years, etc. Oh, and Andrew is suppose to wear his sash (which he doesn't have)with his merit badges and that it's part of class A uniform. Andrew has never wanted to put his merit badges on a sash. He would rather put them in a small display frame.

I'm counting down hours....

And I will also being attaching 8 character/thank you letters that Andrew has copies of dating back from 2003 with my letter above.
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Postby ASM-142 » Wed May 21, 2008 11:07 am

A uniform if worn should be a full uniform. However, it is not required to wear a uniform.
If it is not written down then it is not an official rule
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Postby evmori » Wed May 21, 2008 11:18 am

Class A is not a BSA term for any uniform.
The uniform isn't required for any BOR.
There is no requirement for reference letters, only to supply the names of people willing to give a reference.


This advancement committee is way out of line & needs to be reeled in before they do any more damage.

Good luck to your son. Let us know how it goes!
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Postby wagionvigil » Wed May 21, 2008 11:59 am

OK Everyone here is our chance I just sent a leter in support of ANdrew and condeming these so called scouters. We all can send a letter in his support to his mom.
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Postby evmori » Wed May 21, 2008 12:09 pm

wagionvigil wrote:OK Everyone here is our chance I just sent a leter in support of ANdrew and condeming these so called scouters. We all can send a letter in his support to his mom.


Give me an address!
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Postby CrossF!r3 » Wed May 21, 2008 12:40 pm

evmori wrote:Class A is not a BSA term for any uniform.
The uniform isn't required for any BOR.


Ooh, don't tempt me. Now I want to walk into my EBoR wearing a tux and holding a single red rose. Haha, however much I want to I won't. :P

evmori wrote:
wagionvigil wrote:OK Everyone here is our chance I just sent a leter in support of ANdrew and condeming these so called scouters. We all can send a letter in his support to his mom.


Give me an address!


I think wagionvigil is referring to sending an email. My EBoR is tonight around 7PM (I was told 7PM, now they are saying 7:30) and I'll be leaving a bit early to go for a little drive and relax before the big show. I'll need to calm my nerves a little bit. I am not happy with missing youthgroup (and I was scheduled to play guitar for the worship team too!!) and we just have recently got a new youth pastor and I wanted to be there to support him. That's ok though, that's something I can handle. This is the end of my short little rant. lol.

Thank you all for the kind words and for supporting my mom through all this. I think shes a little nervous, but we should be absolutely fine. 8)
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