Disturbing Advancement Strategies

[papabear]

I have seen this strategy discussed on this website and I have seen it in practice in our troop, but I would like some comments on this as I am not sure it in the Scouts best interest.
There are several requirements for Tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class that build on themselves. For example: knot tying. As a new Scout, the Scout is asked to tie a Square Knot, Tenderfoot adds two half hitches and the taut-line knots, First Class add lashings and the bowline. First aid and Swmming are simiar in that the skills build on each other and introduced to the Scouts a little at a time. Then the Scouts can work on the related merit badge Pioneering, Swimming, Orienteering, First Aid. What I see happening is that the Scouts (with the parents help) will work on the merit badge with the idea that earning the merit badge fulfills the rank requirements. Which means the Scout needs to complete the skill one time only and be done with it.
What happened to the idea that the Scout master the skills a little at a time and allow the skills to build on each other?
For me it is like passing a calculus course in college and expecting to receive credit for algebra, geometry, trig, etc.
As a result of this practice I have seen Eagle Scouts who cannot tie the simple knots (bowline, taut-line) and does not know how to tie any lashings.
Comments please.

[pipestone1991]

*shrugs* I can do all of the knots but do not know the lashings as I never really needed them. Things like knots and first aid need to be used in practice a lot for them to be remembered.

[WVBeaver05]

MB requirements are not substitutes for Rank requirements. If a Scout learns what is needed for a MB and then demonstrates to me as SM, fine. But just getting the MB doesn't do it.

I've had it happen. Scouts return from summer camp with a MB and say can you sign this rank requirement off. I say "show me ...." When they can't, I say that I will sign off when they learn it (then I ask the SPL to get them trained). After they demonstrate the required knowledge, then I sign if off.

Does it make me wonder about the MB? Sure (also to contact the Camp Director and report it - they can't fix it if they don't know about it)! But, I can't uncomplete a MB for them.

YiS

[papabear]

I think you missed the point. Of course the requirement still needs to be demonstrated and signed off for the rank advancement and you need to practice the skills to really learn them.
More to the point. The emphases in Scout these days seems to be more towards advancement and not actually learning (mastering) the skills. If a Scout learns a little bit of these skills at a time, maybe by the time he earns the merit badge and his Eagle rank he will actually know it.
Being able to demonstrate a skill one time does not indicate the Scout's knowledge.
The skills required for rank advancement and the merit badges related to that skill all build on each other but it seems to me that many Scouts and their families just want to get things signed off.

[jr56]

As pipestone alluded to earlier, a scout may learn a certain skill, but if their scouting program doesn't allow them the opportunity to utilize and practice that skill, they won't retain it. Just because an Eagle scout can't tie a bowline on request for example, doesn't mean that he never learned it properly at the time of sign off.

[FrankJ]

Advancement is a method not aim in scouting. It is up to the troop to educate the scouts & parents about this. Another reason having trained leadership is important. If you have an active outdoor program and do not let the parents set up & cook for the scouts, the skills will take care of themselves.

As for as merit badge requirements paralleling rank requirements, a lot of them do & as for as the rank requirement goes, if the scout shows me he met the requirement, I will sign it off. The merit badge part of it is between him & his merit badge counselor.

[wagionvigil]

This all went out the door with t 2 1 all at the same time plus at one time you could not do Merit Badges until after you were at least 2nd Class. I really think we need to go back to that.

[milominderbinder2]

...What happened to the idea that the Scout master the skills a little at a time and allow the skills to build on each other?....

It never said that. You could always learns your skills at any time.

Back in the good old days (pre-1972) you had to demonstrate skills over:
0 months - Tenderfoot
1 Month - Second Class
2 Months - First Class
3 Months - Star
3 Months - Life
6 Months - Eagle

You could learn the skills any time.

Back in the good old days, you could make Eagle in 13 months. Women couldn't be anything but Den Moms. And your Scoutmaster could take you out in the woods by himself any time he wanted.

This goes back to program. The way to really learn a skill is the be taught it the first time, then help teach it the next time, then lead it. But many units don't include Scouting basic skills in their annual program. ("We already did that...")

So how many of you have older Scouts who can't tie their knots or lashings? Can't use a map and compass? Or couldn't do first aid to save their own sole?

How many Eagle Scouts could not pass Second Class let alone First Class tests?

Is it the boys who have failed or did we fail them?

- Craig

[evmori]

1st Class Emphasis really put the kibosh to Scouts actually learning skills & placed it heavily on advancing quickly because National has stats that state if a Scout earns 1st Class within 12-14 months form joining a Troop he is more likely to stay in Scouting. I have never seen anything to back this statement up! Nor do I believe there is any evidence to back this up!

There should be time in rank included for every rank!

[smtroop168]

Ed...I'd like to see the data to support that statement too. I don't know why they made the change that Craig wrote up but my guess is that some group decided "if we get them to 1st class sooner, they'll stay". The difference back then is that you also couldn't work on MBs until 2nd class so the scout spent a lot more time on skills than Fingerprinting or Music MB (that's for Wagion ). Actually it now takes 16 months TIG from 1st to Eagle and that's where we lose them (I have no National data just local council experience)

BRING BACK THE SKILL AWARDS!! (just kidding)

[deweylure]

I have seen it as a MB counselor a scout comes and First aid is a pre req. I have not signed off because they did not know it .

I was a scout in the 70's and skill awards were in . I must say they helped.

Our troop constantly reviews first aid ,knots,lashings. If you do not use the skilll you loose it.

Dewey

[Quailman]

Our troop constantly reviews first aid ,knots,lashings. If you do not use the skilll you loose it.

I wish our troop would do this. In fact, we are having a SM/ASM meeting next week and I plan on insisting that we cover scout skills at every meeting. Ours is the consummate advancement mill. Once a requirement is signed off, we no longer practice it. The older boys rarely get a chance to teach newer members. Our meeting format now is to have two group merit badge offerings - one ER and one elective - and an outdoor free-for-all for boys who are not interested in or who have already earned those MBs. I've been a lone voice in the past, but we had more than a dozen boys cross over, and about five new ASMs.

The fact that he's calling for a meeting (Perhaps it was suggested by our new CC) is a good sign. My oldest aged out yesterday, and my youngest is Life. He's aware of some of the shortcomings in the troop. He was one of three SPL candidates in the recent election, all of whom said in their short speeches that they want to make the troop more boy-led. One (not him) also said he wanted to require that they work on a scout skill at every meeting.

At least as far as knots, I've continued to work on those with my own boys. When it comes to 1st aid, however, we all need more practice.

[OldGreyBear]

It is the troop'd program that determines if a scout will retain a skill or not. I took 2 years of high school french and remember very little of it, why? because I do not use it, the same with chemistry and a few other subjects. I knew them at the time but since I dont use them, I have forgotten them.

I see no reason to blame the BSA for poor scout skills when it is the troops program that dictates whether of not a scout knows a skill. If the scout learns to tie a bowline and its 6 months before he needs to tie it again, what will happen? he will not be able to tie it most likely, is that his fault or the program that did not afford him the opportunity to tie it?

[milominderbinder2]

The biggest problems are not with our boy, they are with the adults.

If only adults would follow the rules and follow the program.

If only they would try it, Scouting is a great program...

- Criag

[ScoutingStokes]

Is it the boys who have failed or did we fail them?

- Craig

The biggest problems are not with our boy, they are with the adults.

If only adults would follow the rules and follow the program.

If only they would try it, Scouting is a great program...

- Criag

Amen! We failed them! If we were following the program....cause it IS a GREAT program....
I get along with the boys in our Troop GREAT - it is generally the adults who give me grief!

[Ursus Snorous Roarus]

Interesting points of view. As a product of the post ’72 era, love the Skill Awards and First Aid MB being needed for 1st Class rank, usually the first merit badge we earned. I’m still not convinced that Family Life really does all that much, but then again neither really did Safety (that’s one that’s been lost - not seen ONE Scout take it since they removed it from required). It’s too bad they couldn’t merge the two together as each has a number of good requirements.

As a Scoutmaster, it’s my (our) responsibility to make sure a boy is prepared to go take a merit badge ‘before’ he makes an appointment with a counselor (actually before he is assigned a counselor). IE - If Johnny Second Class wants to take First Aid MB, I tell him to get the 1st Class 1st Aid done first. How do I know he is doing this? Because he has to come to ME to get a blue card! That’s what the front signature on the blue card is for. It’s amazing how fast he gets that requirement signed off and is back in front of me ready for a blue card signature! That is how we prevent Scouts from taking merit badges before they are ready. That’s a Scoutmaster’s call, a huge can of worms if you relinquish. I really wish counselors would remind the Scout on the phone not to come see them without that signature (had one counselor send a Star Scout home as he ‘wasn’t prepared’ for the merit badge because he lacked it!).

Biased to our summer camp: a Scout that is taking a merit badge with any pre-reqs from rank (1st Aid, swimming, camping, etc…), the staff counselors require the Scout to bring to class a letter written by the Scout stating that he has earned those requirements with my signature. They make no assumptions from rank, age, or other MBs. If the Scout doesn’t have that letter on Monday, they send him back to campsite to get it. Hurrah!

So I guess if we as leaders are watching this process, being consistent and repeating over and over to all, it will prevent the advancement problem presented. Now, retaining those skills is another issue…

[wagionvigil]

What about the leaders that put kids in MB /allow them to take,that they are really too young to complete? "Climbing,Wilderness Survival,Archery. To name a few.

[Ursus Snorous Roarus]

Wow is that a tough one, especially when the parent is pushing it behind the scenes. Usually you can 'guide' a Scout into taking one more appropriate for his maturity and rank without too much of a battle. They have so many to choose from, we can usually manuever him to another and suggest we put that one aside for the time being, but can come back to later. Boys are actually pretty good with understanding this. But when the parent doesn't agree we get problems or when a spoiled kid throws a temper tantrum, even worse.
I've had to remind the committee numerous times that it is the SM's call and they back me on it (I have a great committee!). Now if they can't, then we need to discuss our philosophies and go from there.... sometimes you have to give a little. But when I get a parent up my behind over his Johhny NewScout wanting to take Aviation Merit Badge, I attempt to explain, then refer him to the committee and that's usually the end of it.

[AquilaNegra2]

Back in the good old days...

Sounds good to me! I think Scouting has 'evolved' to its detriment.

[alex gregory]

I really see no problem with the premise that a 1st year scout cannot complete the First Aid MB and thereby satisfy all or most of the TFC first aid requirements. By suggesting otherwise I think you are violating the "no more no less" rule of advancement.

As long as the First Aid MB counsellor has done a good job of teaching the MB, all first aid advancement requirements through 1st Class should be satisfied. My main concern about First Aid MB is that I'm not sure BSA is doing as good a job of teaching first aid as it should. Having taken the Red Cross training, I was very disapointed with the lesser quality instruction I observed at summer camp last week. To be fair, a MB is not supposed to make a scout an expert at anything but merely provide basic knowledge and exposure.

I absolutely agree that skills have to be practiced, applied and re-learned (which reminds me I have to get my Red Cross re-certification before the end of October). Where the troop can help a lot is to make sure the boys practice and improve the skills they have learned.