I Want to Fire Our SPL

[spl08]

I think a good education will have more of an impact then God.

It sounds like you're thinking from a very worldly viewpoint. That being said I have to say that I disagree with your opinion. Actually I think that even from a worldly point of view religion will has an equal, if not greater, impact. Education gets you many places, especailly when it comes to jobs (which is what I assume you mean by "having more of an impact"), however that's 99% of the time only half of what employers are looking for. The other half? Character; Integrity; honor. You can be a smart person, but if you lie cheat and steal, you won't end up where you want to be. Because those are to some degree learned traits that many times are influenced by religion, you can almost say that religion is part of your education, and a very important one at that. From a worldly standpoint, you really need a strong foundation in both of those fields to be successful. I would highly suggest you not ever cheat yourself out of a very important education that is not only critical in this world, but also in the next.

[spl08]

I have an athiest Eagle Scout friend who says he's reverent to his family. I'm not about to rat him out for it.

Pipestone,

You have a moral obligation.

- Craig

I have to say that I agree; he shouldn't be an Eagle. I am curious though, is it pipestone's responceiblity to turn him in? If this person has character, shouldn't he send it in himself? Wouldn't pipestone's turning him in go against the points of being trustworthy, and loyal to his friend? Or does it more strongly go against the organization of scouting from the standpoint of pipestone being trustworthy and loyal to the organiztion? I ask those as sincere questions, though I think I know what the right one is; just looking for other's opinions. I knew a scout that was in that same situation (but it was at a camp with people from other troops, he wasn't an Eagle at the time and I'm not sure if he is now, and I only remember his first name and some other scout seemed to think that his situation was allowed by the BSA and obviously I found out later that it wasn't). I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into the same situation again in the future.

If nothing else Pipestone, I think you should consider telling him that it would be correct of him to turn it in.

[AquilaNegra2]

I have an athiest Eagle Scout friend who says he's reverent to his family. I'm not about to rat him out for it.

Pipestone,

You have a moral obligation.

- Craig

I have to say that I agree; he shouldn't be an Eagle. I am curious though, is it pipestone's responceiblity to turn him in? If this person has character, shouldn't he send it in himself? Wouldn't pipestone's turning him in go against the points of being trustworthy, and loyal to his friend? Or does it more strongly go against the organization of scouting from the standpoint of pipestone being trustworthy and loyal to the organiztion? I ask those as sincere questions, though I think I know what the right one is; just looking for other's opinions. I knew a scout that was in that same situation (but it was at a camp with people from other troops, he wasn't an Eagle at the time and I'm not sure if he is now, and I only remember his first name and some other scout seemed to think that his situation was allowed by the BSA and obviously I found out later that it wasn't). I wouldn't be surprised if I ran into the same situation again in the future.

If nothing else Pipestone, I think you should consider telling him that it would be correct of him to turn it in.

Ask yourself this -- if the other boy were failing in a different aspect (say, morally straight, or involved in something illegal), would he have an obligation then?

We can hope that the other boy would have the honor and character to stand up and say that he doesn't agree with the principles of Scouting, but it sounds doubtful. The bottom line is that being an Eagle Scout means not only that you are among Scouting's elite, but that you subscribe to the values it embodies.

[FrankJ]

If a scout is an Eagle it is really too late. You cannot take the rank from him. Another reason to have real board of reviews with trained leadership. You can refuse to register as an adult leader though.

A scout's relationship god is a personal thing. Although this is not the best place to discuss it, a scout's questions on this subject should be encouraged & thoughtfully answered.

[milominderbinder2]

As I think about this, I have more questions than answers.

Have you met with the 13 year old SPL and clearly discussed his responsibilities? How often?

He has been in the job 6 months? I am using my limited psychic powers here but six months ago did your son also run for SPL? And did your son run for ASPL again this time and lose to him again? Or not run against him because he knew the SPL would win?

Reaching way out here, is it possible your son is one of the 14 year old Life Scouts you mention? I ask because I would have expected you just to say that the SPL is one of the oldest and highest ranked Scouts.

You wanted us to know that the 13 year old SPL was home schooled. I am not sure how that impacts his performance as an SPL. Why is that important?

You mentioned that he was competing for $500. Why is that important?

If his mom sees you at the grocery store and tells you he has had a conflict come up six days ahead of time, you feel that he still needed to call you as well? Did you tell her that?

Have you asked him or his mom why they booked the flight they did? I have had times where a different flight might have cost hundreds of dollars more. Was this the first flight they could get after the music was done? Did they need to stay over another day to get a lower rate?

- Craig

Billiken,

Almost a month ago you posted about your 13 year old SPL. We have given all kinds of thoughts and asked so many questions.

Billiken, you are in fact on this forum and you are posting, but you won't reply to the many people who are trying to help you.

Why?

[smtroop168]

Interesting. I don't know if National has ever revoked a Medal but they could take them off the Master register. They probably would "request that it be returned" but probably if the individual was the type who would perpetrate a fraudulent act at their EBOR (How would even the best trained EBOR discover this? The Scout isn't going to admit it.)

I know they revoked the Gay adult Leaders' membership and he was an Eagle Scout but I don't know if they asked for his medal to be returned.

I can't imagine that pipestone's friend would place him in this position of being "loyal". IMHO, the good of the organization wins out.

[pipestone1991]

I think the topic needs to be closed wagion. We have taken it way out of hand and are discussing something else completely. We have answered billikin's question and the discussion should be over.

[smtroop168]

Pipestone1991.....I'm disappointed but not surprised at your response. We could start a new thread I guess so it has more visibility than where the current discussion is.

[scouter01]

Perhaps a split or two ( religion +integrity)? that would be better imho.

One of the things that annoys me is that while maybe someone might call it nondenominational most of the things I hear are pretty christian:

take off your hat- in my religion, its put on your hat and I just kind of go along because I don't want to make a big deal

and there are also a bunch of referces such as " the lord" his son blah blah blah.

On a similar note ( sadly) someone in our troop died and since the family was really into scouts, the funeral service included Jesus's "scouting" career and while it was at a church the pastor still was very close to saying some very untrue things about my religion. SO I htink sometimes people just don't think they are in the presence of others.

Lastly, while religion promotes ethics, not all religous are morally upstanding and not all (or most I would assume) athiests are immoral .people

[Billiken]

As I think about this, I have more questions than answers.

Have you met with the 13 year old SPL and clearly discussed his responsibilities? How often?

He has been in the job 6 months? I am using my limited psychic powers here but six months ago did your son also run for SPL? And did your son run for ASPL again this time and lose to him again? Or not run against him because he knew the SPL would win?

Reaching way out here, is it possible your son is one of the 14 year old Life Scouts you mention? I ask because I would have expected you just to say that the SPL is one of the oldest and highest ranked Scouts.

You wanted us to know that the 13 year old SPL was home schooled. I am not sure how that impacts his performance as an SPL. Why is that important?

You mentioned that he was competing for $500. Why is that important?

If his mom sees you at the grocery store and tells you he has had a conflict come up six days ahead of time, you feel that he still needed to call you as well? Did you tell her that?

Have you asked him or his mom why they booked the flight they did? I have had times where a different flight might have cost hundreds of dollars more. Was this the first flight they could get after the music was done? Did they need to stay over another day to get a lower rate?

- Craig

Sorry for my absence, I've been traveling a lot for work.
Also, this thread drifted off from the initial post/subject matter.
I agree with Pipestone1991, the thread is now OT (off-topic).

I do very much appreciate the great advice and ideas given.
This forum is a fantastic resource and I tell other Scouters about it every chance I get.

Let me see if I can answer some of the questions.

Responsibilities were discussed along with a review of the SPL Handbook.
Also talked about the "job" with him after he missed some campouts.

We have a very young troop. My son and another 14-yr old are both Life.
The SPL is Star (needs 3 reqd MBs) and turns 14 in October.
The other two guys did not run for SPL.
One was swamped with swim team and Den Chief duties.
My son held the SPL position in 2007 and deferred to his friend, this time.
All 3 of the boys are friends (do stuff together outside of Scouting).
These three guys are the oldest Scouts in our troop.

I noted home schooled because someone mentioned that his absences could be school-related.

I mentioned the $500 first prize to confirm that this was obviously, NOT any sort of school-function.

He's flying home on the Sunday we leave for camp.
The cost/finances of the flight decision are none of my business.
Finding transportation to 7Ranges is his (101 miles 1-way).

Like all kids today, our Scouts are doing numerous other activities.
I tell our Scouts that Scouting does not have to be the most important activity all the time.

However, Scouting should "come in first" at least sometimes.