Attendance

[Woodbadgegirl]

I have a question about troops and attendance policies.

In the the back of the scout book it states that a boy must be in a role of leadership and be active in his troop to advance in rank. My son has been a Den Chief since last September 2003. He earned the first class rank in May 2004. During that time he has only missed two den meetings, attended all pack meetings, and all pack activites. He also went to summer camp with the den. He is now ready to go for his Star BOR but they told him that he can't because he hasn't met the troop attendance guidelines. They have a guideline of 75% meeting attendance and 75% activity attendance. This is determined in a 4 month period, and my son attended 71% of the meetings during that time (He didn't attend 3 meetings due to one sick day, a school registration night and 1 soccer game) and only 25% of the activites. The reason he didn't attend the 3 activities in July, August & September is because they cost to much and we couldn't afford them. July had a canoe trip costing $80, August was a day to Indiana Beach $25, and September was going to shades park $35. We can hardly afford the $5 a month in dues and the $15 monthly camping trips.

My question is, does this sound fair? That he has to wait another 4 months to advance in rank and if he has 75% attendance during that time, he can earn his Star?

What does the BSA say about attendance?

[Rick Tyler]

I have a question about troops and attendance policies.

In the the back of the scout book it states that a boy must be in a role of leadership and be active in his troop to advance in rank. (...)
My question is, does this sound fair? That he has to wait another 4 months to advance in rank and if he has 75% attendance during that time, he can earn his Star? What does the BSA say about attendance?

The definition of "active" is up to the Scoutmaster. I've never heard of any other legitimate answer to this question (Paul?). For what it's worth, we have similar attendance standards, but also allow for life conflicts (church, school, some reasonable level of sports absences -- certainly more than most coaches allow) and Scoutmaster discretion. If your family has problem paying for activities, I would strongly suggest that you talk with the Committee and/or Scoutmaster about ways your son can earn money for outings. We had some of our scouts put on a car wash to pay for an especially expensive October outing at the Seattle Museum of Flight.

From your side of the story, it certainly sounds like they are being unreasonable. Have you had a meeting with the Scoutmaster and/or Committee Chair? You have little other recourse. If they won't be reasonable (in your judgement) your only real choice is to live with it or transfer to another troop. In my opinion (which is worth at least as much as it costs) they are being hard-nosed but are not violating BSA regulations.

By the way, please note that requirements #1 and #5 are different. The Scoutmaster can decide what "active" means for requirement #1. For requirement #5, the BSA has ruled on many occasions that if the Scout is registered in a position of responsibility for four months, he has completed requirement #5. Even if he did a lousy job, or rarely did it at all, he completes it. The SPL and Scoutmaster should consider counseling or removing a Scout in a POR who is not doing his job, but the SM cannot refuse to sign off on #5 just because he did not like the job the Scout did.

Good luck, and I sure hope things work out well for your son.

[wagionvigil]

Elsewhere in this forum "active " was discussed. The definition of active according to the BSA is to be a registered member of the BSA. If you choose to appeal your troops decision elsewhere, the troop will loose. Again and I will probably cause someoine to be up set with me BUT troop rules that affect advancement or are contrary to National Policies are not allowed.
Why troops have to exert their power over these young men is beyond me. What purpose does it serve? Except to have the troop leadership to inflate their worth to the troop.
If it was me I would move my son to another troop if one was close if none close by I would take it up with 1.The District. 2. Council. 3 Region and 4.National.

[Woodbadgegirl]

allow for life conflicts (church, school, some reasonable level of sports absences -- certainly more than most coaches allow) and Scoutmaster discretion. If your family has problem paying for activities, I would strongly suggest that you talk with the Committee and/or Scoutmaster about ways your son can earn money for outings.

That's nice that you do allow for that. This troop seems to think there is nothing else but scouts. Their solution to paying for activities, is sell more popcorn. My husband was working 40-50 hours of overtime during the popcorn campaign, which made it very difficult to get my 13 year old Boy Scout and 8 year old Cub Scout out to sell popcorn, with having a smaller child to take care of as well. We have no idea what the future of my husband's job is and we don't know how we are going to pay for things. My son has his heart set on becoming Eagle someday.

If you choose to appeal your troops decision elsewhere, the troop will loose. Again and I will probably cause someone to be up set with me BUT troop rules that affect advancement or are contrary to National Policies are not allowed.

We have a committee meeting tomorrow night and this subject will be discussed along with other things that they have done. I have called National, and they don't have anything in writing that states that a troop can't do this, with the exception of the Advancement Committee Guide stating:

"No Council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from any advancement requirement."

If it was me I would move my son to another troop if one was close if none close by I would take it up with 1.The District. 2. Council. 3 Region and 4.National.

I have asked my son what he wants to do, and he said he wants to stay with his friends, but fight this. I agree. I don't want to pack up my toys and leave, I want to make a difference in this troop for other boys that may face the same situations.

I am a District volunteer already, but have never been faced with this issue. Another committee member from the troop called the council office and she was told that we can impose an attendance policy. But National says "No". This all makes everything so confusing. I wish National would make things in Black & White, not so gray and fuzzy.

I agree with you all when you say that you don't understand why troops do what they do. This troop has also made many people upset with the way they are running troop elections. They are trying to pass a rule that the boy has to be White Stag trained in order to be a SPL. I think Whitestag is a wonderful program, but not all boys can afford the $145 price tag. They have also dropped Historian and Librarian from the leadership roles for advancement. So if you get voted into these positions, it doesn't count on your rank leadership needed for advancement. That is going to be discussed as well.

I have a feeling that tomorrow night's meeting will last until midnight!!

Thanks for you input on this topic. I need all the help I can get!

[wagionvigil]

By imposing an attendance policy you have just affected advancement which is not allowed.

Here are the Leadership positions as per National Policy and they cannot be changed
Patrol Leader
Asst. Senior Patrol Leader
Senior Patrol Leader
Troop Guide
OA Troop Rep.
Den Chief
Scribe
Librarian
Historian
Quartermaster
Bugler
Jr. Asst. SM
Chalpain AIde
Instructor
A troop has NO AUTHORITY to Change This AT Any Time. For Any reason
This is in black and White in the SCout Handbook
For More Info you can go to Merit badge .com and go to advancement.
I would like to know your council and troop number. I am not timid about rattling a cage or two. at your REgion Office.

[Woodbadgegirl]

Yep! I totally agree. See this troop was very small until my den of Webelos and another den in my pack visited it. I had 6 boys and the other had 10. We all decided that this troop looked like the best at the time and joined. I encouraged another den to join us, and this troop went from having 20 boys to 45! They are suffering growing pains right now. They are a bunch of "Good O' Boys" who haven't had to deal with "Trained Leaders" and those who want to follow the BSA guidelines. I believe that over time they will come around. But how many boys to we have to lose because they are advancing? My son is very upset.

[wagionvigil]

Does this troop attend your council summer camp or do they just do their own thing?

[cballman]

Woodbadgegirl I havea couple of thoughts if the troop requires a certain training for the boys the does the troop pay for it? IMHO i would hope so. no the second is it just your son being picked on or is it a whole group of younger kids? if it is the whole group then I would see about starting my own troop or find another troop that will work with the kids. By the way if your are a woodbadge girl the what are you?

Charlie tha BEAR with issues

[wagionvigil]

you only need 5 boys Sm and ASM plus a committee and a Charter Org to start your own troop. I would go for it Now!

[OldGreyBear]

I am very much against defining Active with some percentage number. Lets say Troop A has a 75% attendance at meetings and 50% of events policy and Troop B has a 50% Meeting and events policy and Troop C has no such restrictions. In Troops A and B scouts routinely drop out and do not advance and look back on their scouting careers and think, boy, I wish I had done more in scouts but with band and baseball (etc) I couldn't fit it in. Then there is Troop C. They have scouts who are active at different times of the year and then aren’t so active. These scouts advance when they show up and do the requirements. They can look back at their scout career and think, wow, scouts were fun and I was able to do all those other things as well. The added kicker is if any of the scouts of A, B, or C earn Eagle, they earn Eagle. There is no asterisk attached to any of the Eagle Certificates delineating the attendance record of the scout.

Here is how I look at it. To advance in ranks up to and including first class, certain requirements have to be met. Shopping, Cooking, Camping, attendance at a set amount of troop activities. When the scout accomplishes these requirements, I think you have to say the scout was active; after all, he accomplished all the requirements that were presented to him.

Now, when a scout is First Class, things do get interesting, in order to advance he has to complete (make that satisfactory complete) a position of responsibility for at least 4 months. As is normal all the requirements say the scout is to be an active member of the troop, patrol ect, to advance. Now, I don’t think a scout can satisfactory complete 4 months in a position of responsibility for 4 months and still not be defined as an active scout. The key is the way the position of responsibility is handled. The scoutmaster or designee goes over the job description with the scout and assures the duties and expectations are understood. On a periodic basis the scoutmaster or designee reviews the scouts performance and highlights strengths and they talk about how to improve weaknesses. When the four months is through, there is no question that the scout was active, he had to be to complete his job. Then the scout becomes Star and a six-month Position of Leadership is required. Again, the job description is reviewed, the expectations set and the monitoring begins. After six months, if the job is done well, the scout had to be active. The Scout is now Life and in another 6 months he could be Eagle, the cycle being followed again.

Lets say a scout joins a troop on his 11th birthday. It’s a really happening troop and he goes through the ranks and becomes a first class scout on his 12 th birthday. In 4 months he becomes Star and 6 months later Life and indeed 6 months after that, when he is 13 and 4 months old he reaches Eagle. He has satisfactorily completed the requirements. He held three positions of responsibility and always understood the expectations and always met them. He attends 90% of the meetings and 80% of the events. Then after his Eagle Court of Honor, he is never seen again. Well, he is seen, just not as a scout. He completed his requirements and in Irving, he is listed as an Eagle.

Then you can have another scout. One of many interests and an eclectic lad by nature. He also joins at 11, and he takes one year to make first class. But then after his 4 months stint as historian, satisfactorily completed, it takes him another 12 months to accomplish the required merit badges for Star. After earning Star he drops out of sight for 6 months and them comes back, assumes the Quartermaster position and goes great for 6 months then when his stint is over, it takes him another 6 months of spotty attendance but he makes Life. Then it takes him 18 months to make Eagle with 6 months of solid ASPL work, but due to band and baseball, little else. It takes the second scout considerably longer to achieve Eagle, but as both met the requirements, in Irving the names are in the same file, under Eagle Scouts. Was the second scout as active as he could have been? No, Was the first scout? No, But if they both met the requirements, and performed them satisfactory, so I would say they were both active.

[Rick Tyler]

By imposing an attendance policy you have just affected advancement which is not allowed.

Here are the Leadership positions as per National Policy and they cannot be changed(...) A troop has NO AUTHORITY to Change This AT Any Time. For Any reason
This is in black and White in the SCout Handbook(...)

Respectfully, go back to your Handbook and read requirements 1 and 5 for Star scout. The requirements for active participation and active in a position of responsibility are different. I believe it is requirement #1 that Woodbadgegirl's son is having problems with. I have never heard from a credible source that National says a troop cannot have standards for active participation (requirement 1).

I believe you are correct regarding requirement 5.

[wagionvigil]

Her troop does not allow historian and librarian count as positions of leadership. They cannot do that

[OldGreyBear]

I was thinking about what Mr. Tyler says,

I have never heard from a credible source that National says a troop cannot have standards for active participation (requirement 1).

And it got me to thinking, because he is right, I havent seen it written anywhere although I have always been told troops could not set attendance polices.

Now, in the Sea Scout Program, In the Active membership section of the requirements to attain the ranks of Ordinary and Able Seaman and to acheive the Quatermaster award it specifically calls for 75% attendance to Ship meetings and events for varioyus lenght of time. Now, if its specifically mentioned in this BSA program and its not mentioned in the Boy Scout program, that tells me that manditory attendance levels in Boy Scouts in not allowed because it is mandated in Sea Scouts and not mentioned in Boy Scouts.

[wagionvigil]

I agree. If it mentioned one place for a program it ould be mentioned for another program if allowed. I would have no problem with removing the leadership of this troop.And if that did not work dissolve the troop and start a new one with a stipulation that no present Sm or asm are permitted. Rmember to remove someione from scouting all it takes is a letter form the council exec saying sorry but we do not want you any more. No hearing no appeal!

[Scouting179]

oldgreybear made great points, which I mostly agree with.

I have been Adv Chair for my troop for 2 years now and I had the opposite problem...the guy before me had no standards for uniforms, being active etc. When i was asked to take over, I told them exactly what I thought--at a BOR a youth should have a full squared away uniform and have done something for his troop job and be active. Before there were guys who did NOTHING for their job and got credit for it. I laid done the law as I saw it when I took over and it's much better than it was: they know to be in full uniform and they know to do their job. Part of this is the SM is too nice on these issues, but he supports me.

The problem is that "active" is as defined by the SM. It's all up to him. We don't always agree on this as he'll pass a kid on to me and I think his leadership or whatever was substandard and then I have to deal with it, but now we match closer and when the SM falls short (as I view it) I tell him. Active could mean attending once a quarter, or 90%. I don't like the quotas either...it's not quantifiable that way. With troop jobs, each requires different amounts of work...SPL requires lots of work, Chaplain Aide doesn't. When I see a kid getting close to a BOR and I feel he's subpar, I tell what to do before he even gets to the SM Conference.

[wagionvigil]

I would like an answer as to why troops keep doing these things. An Attendance rule affects advancement aand any rule that affects advancement is not allowed. For those that think that having these rules are OK I would like you to justify them to me . Remember your answer must be an answer that would stand up in court. AS some one that does this will get sued eventually. You cannot use "because" in your response.

[Scouting179]

My troop doesn't have rules (such as a percent attendance rule, etc), but we do expect them to do their troop job instead of blowing it off. Doing their job is required by the rank requirements. As for a proper uniform, this is in the handbook and as far as I'm concerned, showing up to a BOR with a sloppy uniform, with half the patches missing and the ones that are there are hanging by a few threads does not show good Scout Spirit, which is also required by the rank requirements.

As I hinted before, we could discuss what constitues acceptable "Scout Spirit" and "being active" forever and never agree on it.

I hope this clears up what I was saying before.

I do agree if you add rules such as percentage level, etc, this is clearly out of bounds of the rank requirements...which leads me to a new thread I'm going to start on law suits and BORs.

[wagionvigil]

I have no problem with anything you have just Stated. I to believe in doing your job and being in Uniform.

[Woodbadgegirl]

And it got me to thinking, because he is right, I havent seen it written anywhere although I have always been told troops could not set attendance polices.

Ok, who is saying this and why can't they put this in writing???

I totally agree that a scout must be active to advance, but the problem is that everyone including my troop has different interpretations as to what "active" is. My son is very active, but I guess 71.25% wasn't active enough to earn his Star and he has to do it all over again. Which I think is pretty unfair, but I'm his mother, so anything that keeps him from advancing in rank is going to be that to me right now. It's taken him 7 months from earning first class to get to this point, and now we have to wait another 4 months?

An Attendance rule affects advancement and any rule that affects advancement is not allowed.

Where does it say that? Is that what I quoted earlier from the Adavancement Committee Guide? This troop has been making some really bogus rules here lately and it's not the SM making them. I think that we need to just get back to the basics and follow what the BSA states for us to follow. Problem, what does the BSA say on what "Active" is defined as? We all don't know. And until the BSA makes it Black & White, troops that want to make it tough on the boys and want only the onlys who are 100% into scouts to earn Eagle will make these crazy situlations on attendance.

My son is in 7th grade and has made the A/B honor roll for the first time in his life, he plays forward on a Rec Plus soccer team (And has been scouted by 2 travel teams, but he doesn't want to play travel soccer), and attends scouts, which he loves! I'm not going to have him give up on soccer or school just because he wants to become Eagle. That's not fair to ask a child to give up everything and live, eat and breathe scouts. There has to be balance. My son became a Firecrater this summer. I was told by many Firecrafters that being 13 and making Firecrafter was a be deal. We aren't talking about a boy who isn't active or who isn't serious about scouting, but if this troop keeps him from advancing, he will quit and I will never see him get that Eagle he has so long desired.

I'm very frustrated and would love for our pack to start it's own troop, but no one wants to step forward to be SM and ASM. I don't want the position, and I think women should not be SM.

Like I said earlier, the committee will be having our monthly meeting tomorrow night. I will let you all know how it turns out. I have enjoyed this thread and I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that thinks my troops has lost it. I just need something that I can take to them and say "See, this is why you can't do this!" Wish me luck!

[cballman]

we have kids that are in a marching band they practice from July to November every night and most of these kids dont come to scouts. we also make sure that they hold no position so they cannot be held accountable for that time period. but they come whenever possible. do we kick them out of scouts because of school conflicts no we work with ALL kids who want to be worked with. but to say he has not been to 29 percent of the meetings then what I am going to say might hurt someone but here it is.

these people who make up the numbers and percentages need to get a life and and then when they can get over the percentages and reallize the reason we are scout leaders is for the kids not for our own personal gain.

but I also understand the other side also because if a kid shows up once a month and expects me to know him and sign of something he did over a month ago I am sorry but I dont remember what happened two days ago much less something that happend on the last campout.

Charlie tha BEAR with issues