Leaders Who Refuse To Take Training

[mt_goodrich]

Add me to the list of people that think leaders need more than just YPT.

How can you deliver a program properly if you don't know what the program is?

I have seen units where the leaders have not taken training. Guess who runs the entire program? The leaders. The boys do nothing. It is a dictatorship with the Scoutmaster in charge and the boys and the troop committee (if there really is one) go along with whatever the Scoutmaster decides.

[wagionvigil]

These are also the troops that play paint ball, run troop climbing and rappelling programs take non swimmers on canoe trips etc etc
Let me add a few more. Beer on Camp Outs,No Tour Permits, Go ahead guys you can swim there.
OK Lets Give the new kid what for!
Ok Kid go to the maintenane building and get me a left jhanded smoke shifter.
ON and On and On!

[lifescoutforlife]

Add me to the list of people that think leaders need more than just YPT.

How can you deliver a program properly if you don't know what the program is?

I have seen units where the leaders have not taken training. Guess who runs the entire program? The leaders. The boys do nothing. It is a dictatorship with the Scoutmaster in charge and the boys and the troop committee (if there really is one) go along with whatever the Scoutmaster decides.

I have seen this first hand, there is a couple trained ASM in the troop but they say nothing because they are to afraid to start problems but if they only knew that they are just making more. My feeling is get trained or get out. Every year we have 2 leadership courses and only 1 or 2 people show up because they are new to scouting and want to learn the right way. The ones that have never came think they know it all and are the ones that the boys are running the troop but they really are.

[kwildman]

Our last University of Scouting had a training section on "how to remove a volunteer" sounds like there are some fine candidates that.

Our troop and pack requires all scouters to 100% trained for their positions. YPT is mandatory for all contact leaders, fast start training for all programs. SM, ASM are required to take full SM and Outdoor Essentials. We are fortunate enought that half of our Troop committee have also taken the SM training.

There is no excuse for untrained leadership. You need to put down the ultimatum. Get trained or get out.

Kevin

[wagionvigil]

"There is no excuse for untrained leadership. You need to put down the ultimatum. Get trained or get out."

Bingo!

I have heard the comment that when they require training troops will fold. Well I would rather have a troop fold then have untrained,dangerous leaders.
There is no guarantee that a trained leader will not have something bad happen BUT by requiring that training and the leader not getting trained it puts the liability on the Leader not the CO or the Council. ALL you have to do is follow the rules and the normal method of doing things as per the BSA and you are free and clear----to a point.

If Training is required and a leader fails to get trained they are the one liable. Now that being said the BSA needs to have a drop dead Date or time frame to be trained.

[joat]

There is no guarantee that a trained leader will not have something bad happen BUT by requiring that training it puts the liability on the Leader not the CO or the Council.

That's an interesting thought, but it isn't clear what you mean:
If a chartered org or BSA council requires training, they are relieved of liability?
An untrained leader has no liability?
A trained leader is liable?

Training is a good thing to be sure, but I do not believe that a trained leader has any more or less liability than an untrained leader, nor does a CO or council.

[wagionvigil]

Training helps relieve the Liability on everyone. I may have worded it wrong. If you do things by the book you are less likely to be found liable all the way through the organization.

[joat]

Units with trained Scouters may have fewer accidents. But if an accident occurs, the responsibility for the accident is no more or less for a trained person than an untrained person. If a trained person, following the book exactly, is not responsible for what happened, who is?

[kwildman]

Units with trained Scouters may have fewer accidents. But if an accident occurs, the responsibility for the accident is no more or less for a trained person than an untrained person. If a trained person, following the book exactly, is not responsible for what happened, who is?

Accidents happen. If you follow the written guidelines and procedures of the BSA you are in a much better position than if you didnt. We are talking about civil suits and not criminal. All the training in the world will not exempt you from personal liablility. If you dont follow the BSA guidelines then you will not get any liability insurance from them. Even if the BSA pays you may still face a civil suit because you were the leader. Lawyers will look at the standard of care and judgement used during the accident. It is a real no-brainer for a lawyer to argue that little johnny died because he was allowed to go on a canoe trip even though he is a non-swimmer and it doesnt matter if the death was even swimming related since he should not have been there. Similarly, your unit will be held responsible if a YP incident occurs and you were not following the established procedures and allowed non-trained adults access to kids. A good lawyer will go after the den leaders, cub/scout master, committee, and the CO.

Having trained leaders is a risk minimization tool. Accidents will still happen. I think many are overlooking the other aspect of training which is the aims and methods of the BSA, how to put on a good program, how to recruit kids, how to get good leaders, how to train leaders, where to find resources for activities, how to deal with ADD/AHD, etc. Untrained leaders are not worth the cost of their khaki shirt. Being a scout leader is a priviledge and not a right. If someone wants to volunteer their time then they need to do the job right. As I said before - "Get trained or get out"

Kevin

[deweylure]

In our Troop we have had the problem for years first with an untrained SM who is now the Chair.
Untill the BSA takes controll and stipulates you will be removed this problem will continue.
A good thing happened whenthe old SM stepped out. The program started thriving.
The new SM and 1 ASM are fully trained. The other ASM's need one class to be fully trained,this is not bad considering they joined 1 year ago.



Dewey

[kwildman]

In our Troop we have had the problem for years first with an untrained SM who is now the Chair.
Untill the BSA takes controll and stipulates you will be removed this problem will continue.
A good thing happened whenthe old SM stepped out. The program started thriving.
The new SM and 1 ASM are fully trained. The other ASM's need one class to be fully trained,this is not bad considering they joined 1 year ago.



Dewey

Talk to your CO. They are liable as well and the quality of your program represents thier organization. Just like first class / first year, i would put a time table on your volunteers and hold them to it.

[joat]

Untill the BSA takes controll and stipulates you will be removed this problem will continue.

Why wait for BSA? Your unit has complete control over this and you could solve the problem tomorrow if you wanted to. If you select and recruit an adult that refuses to learn his job, well you got what you selected. So select someone else and move forward!

[evmori]

Untill the BSA takes controll and stipulates you will be removed this problem will continue.

Why wait for BSA? Your unit has complete control over this and you could solve the problem tomorrow if you wanted to. If you select and recruit an adult that refuses to learn his job, well you got what you selected. So select someone else and move forward!

I have had unfit leaders removed from our charter with a phone call from our COR to the council office. It's not that hard.

Position specific training and YP should be mandatory to be a leader.

[joat]

I have had unfit leaders removed from our charter with a phone call from our COR to the council office. It's not that hard.

That doesn't say much for your selection of adult leaders. Maybe what you mean is the COR removed the leader and made a phone call to the council to inform them of what was done. The council almost never intervenes to revoke the membership of a unit leader.

[deweylure]

First of all I did not recruit the old SM nor did I appoint him as chairman. This was all done behind closed doors and the reason it happenned is the old CC was his personal friend and the COR really does not do a thing but provides signatures.

This has been a long time problem even before i joined. At least the new SM is doing a job and letting me do mine. As it goes the other leaders who know how the program works are starting to take action and back me. The CC may just be gone .

Dewey

[evmori]

I have had unfit leaders removed from our charter with a phone call from our COR to the council office. It's not that hard.

That doesn't say much for your selection of adult leaders. Maybe what you mean is the COR removed the leader and made a phone call to the council to inform them of what was done. The council almost never intervenes to revoke the membership of a unit leader.

Actually, I was the one who wanted the leader removed and asked the COR to make the call since it was their unit. This leader never attended training & the Scouts in the unit didn't want to go camping if this dad went. He was in the unit less than one year.

We all make mistakes we should learn from.

[joat]

I just want to make it clear that a unit leader is not removed by simply making a call to the council office. Unit leaders are selected by the chartered organization (through the committee and COR) are are removed by same. The council does not remove unit leaders. The only exception would be if there has been some gross violation of BSA policies and the unit refuses to take action.

[kwildman]

I just want to make it clear that a unit leader is not removed by simply making a call to the council office. Unit leaders are selected by the chartered organization (through the committee and COR) are are removed by same. The council does not remove unit leaders. The only exception would be if there has been some gross violation of BSA policies and the unit refuses to take action.

Reread evmori's post. He had the leader removed from the charter by having the COR call the council. The CO can have any leader removed from their charter.

I would not fault someone for selecting a leader and then later removing them if they dont live up to their expecations. There is a difference between a good person and a good leader. A bigger mistake would be to leave a poor leader in his position and have to deal with the mess.

[ScoutingStokes]

I have seen units where the leaders have not taken training. Guess who runs the entire program? The leaders. The boys do nothing. It is a dictatorship with the Scoutmaster in charge and the boys and the troop committee (if there really is one) go along with whatever the Scoutmaster decides.

Which is exactly where I am....Yay, though we walk through the Valley of the Scoutmaster, no Committee Member shall speak up against him....

Our Troop is only a year old, and the SM was originally the CC until I joined. He had just learned that the SM that was then serving had been transferred out of state. He knew my training and experience and asked me to take over as CC for him as I was joining, so he could be SM. Problem is, he never really let go of CC. I fought and fought to get control of the Committee, and ended up announcing that I was stepping down - with a list of what I was supposed to be doing that he wouldn't let me do as my reasons. (I kept my position as AdvC and webmaster.) I had hoped that would prompt the then COR and him to re-evaluate and let me do the job I volunteered for. NO such luck. They just commandeered a figure head CC who won't do anything or get training, which is where I started this thread. The only other person on the Committee who has had any training just joined us a month ago. I was the ONLY person on the Committee who had experience as a Leader, or even as a parent.

The current SM also sits on our Charter Church's Board, and their Finance Board, and is on the Praise Team. The Church only has about 40 active members, so he is widely known. The old COR was just finishing his training to be a pastor, and wasn't about to go against our SM for fear of not getting a position w/ the church. Which he didn't get anyway and stepped down as COR. But noone wants to go against the SM, except of course, in the parking lot AFTER meetings.

I thought that the new COR would be more apt to straighten things out, but after the last week I now know differently. Heavy sigh.... We have a Committee Meeting on Tues and I plan to follow the advice of one of the posters who said "Might be better to just find another Troop". I'm stepping out of the Troop completely. My husband (ASM) wants to stay and thinks things will change. My oldest son (2ndC) was just elected SPL, because he was one of the only two even close to eligible, so I hesitate to move him. I gave him the option, because I think it should be his choice. He doesn't like the Troop, but wants his time as SPL for rank.

And as for liability, I was taught at NCS that IF your leaders have had training, and filed the appropriate paperwork properly, and have followed BSA rules, then BSA will back you 100% - w/ their own attorneys at no expense to you - if there is a civil suit or anything of the sort. If not, you're on your own...

[AquilaNegra2]

Reasons why you should grin and bear it, or find another troop.

Our Troop is only a year old,

The current SM also sits on our Charter Church's Board, and their Finance Board, and is on the Praise Team. The Church only has about 40 active members, so he is widely known.

Not everyone moves at the speed of sound. Try an ENCOURAGING route with a troop this young. Encourage all the OTHER adults to get trained. Sooner or later, he'll follow suit.

Don't count on the COR. If it's a small church and he's integrally connected, they're going to back him no matter what.

He doesn't like the Troop, but wants his time as SPL for rank.

That's disturbing. Is he 17.5 years old and needs to stay to make Eagle? If he doesn't LIKE the troop, how can he be leading it and serving it?