Who should choose leadership positions in the troop?

[ASM-142]

Who is leading the Troop/Patrol when your PL/dual support Scout is doing the Support function? I.E., Your PL/QM is in the equipment room sigining in/out equipment for a weekend camping trip.

When our PL/QM is in the equipment room signing in/out equipment the APL is leading the Patrol

[commish3]

Consider this. How many adults at work do you know are capable of learning and successfully performing two different leadership positions at the same time? Probably not many. Yet there are unit leaders who would expect boys who are just being introduced to the skills of leadership to be able to accomplish that same feat.

Is the goal of the leadership method of Scouting to be able to operate the troop smoothly, or is it to provide a supportive environment where scouts can learn and practice leadership skills?
If it is the latter, as the BSA training suggests, Then how does having an individual scout carry multiple varied responsibilities effectively help him?

Nowhere does the scouting program say that every positon needs to be filled. What it says is that every scout should have a position of responsibility in order to be a needed member or the patrol or troop. The obligations, responsibilities and skills developed through the POR provides a vehicle for the other methods to be used and for the scout to develop along the Aims of the program.

The leadership selection method is described in nearly every Troop resource and training. The troop elects the SPL, and the SPL (with the guidance and counsel of the SM) selects all other trop positions (except for JASM, which requires the approval of the SM). The patrol elects the PL and he selects all other patrol positions.

Which positions are filled in a troop will depend on the number of scouts and the needs of the troop. The same is true within each unique patrol circumstance. But be careful of giving a scout a burden that most adults cannot carry, and then expecting him to enjoy it and succeed at it.

[ASM-142]

Consider this. How many adults at work do you know are capable of learning and successfully performing two different leadership positions at the same time? Probably not many. Yet there are unit leaders who would expect boys who are just being introduced to the skills of leadership to be able to accomplish that same feat.

We ask boys (and girls) to do this everyday with school and other activities.

With all our leadership positions, adults monitor what is going on to make sure nothing is suffering. This enables to boys to run things themselves, learn things on their own, and still have fun.

[commish3]

Do we really do this in other areas? Does the Captain of the football team selct who plays what positions? Does he have any say in the teams schedule? What plays they practice or use? The teams name?

Does the "first chair" in band determine the music? the dates of the concert? the room arrangement? the practice schedule?

How much authority in the operation of the school does the Class President have?

What makes Boy Scouting work is that it actually gives youth the authority over their own program. That is a rare challenge and opportunity for a boy, and one that is best accomplished one position at a time.

[ASM-142]

I guess that this is something that we will not agree on. I have seen boys that can successfully handle two positions at the same time while another boy could not even manage one. Each boy is an individual and should be treated as such. If they are capable of multiple positions they should have the opportunity to hold them to allow them to grow.

[RWSmith]

I guess that this is something that we will not agree on. I have seen boys that can successfully handle two positions at the same time while another boy could not even manage one. Each boy is an individual and should be treated as such. If they are capable of multiple positions they should have the opportunity to hold them to allow them to grow.

Was this for me, or another memeber? Either way, although I still prefer what I said in mey last post, which was "Is one of the unqualified Scouts willing to learn the QM's job? If so, the the PL who is qualified (and willing) to do both, should NOT fill both positions.", you make a good point... dual positions for boy leaders can sometimes be considered on a case by case basis. I'm not against a boy holding two positions; all I'm saying is that it must never prevent another boy from trying a leadership position (JASM excluded) that would otherwise be available to him, ESPECIALLY if he needs one for the next rank; whether he's actually capable of the job, of not, is completely irrelavent.

[West]

Right, none of them are capiable until they get a chance to try. It's how kids learn. The only thing that makes a boy incapiable for the position is if he is unwilling to try at it. Then he shouldn't get the job. But it's not really our choice anyway, that's up to the kids. The only position we apoint is the Troop Guide and Den Chiefs. This role is occasionaly filled by the SPL (Den Chief only) or ASPL (if they are willing to do both). Basicly this comes down to the fact that you need a boy both skilled and capable of teaching, and it's to important to simply assign to someone who dosn't have a diffrent job.

[commish3]

The only position we apoint is the Troop Guide and Den Chiefs.

Hi West.
Any particuar reason for choosing not to allow the SPL select those positions as well?

[West]

Well, the SPLs input is always considered even for those positions, and actually the final decision is his. It's just that we nominate a limited number of boys for him to choose from. The list is only those kids who have shown the intrest and ability to instruct and help (including friendship) younger boys. This is not by any means every scout, and personaly I feel that these are the most important positions to fill with the right boys. The right Troop Guide and Den Chief (whenever posible we have the Den Chief follow the boys all the way from Wolfs to First Class) can really make the program for the new guys. The wrong person in that positon will drive all the boys away. It's just to much for a 14 year old SPL to consider and even understand on his own. The other reason is that these positions don't fit directly into the troop leadership structure anyway, they have a very important role- it's just somewhat outside the overall hirarchy.

[ASM-142]

The right Troop Guide and Den Chief can really make the program for the new guys. The wrong person in that positon will drive all the boys away. It's just to much for a 14 year old SPL to consider and even understand on his own. The other reason is that these positions don't fit directly into the troop leadership structure anyway, they have a very important role- it's just somewhat outside the overall hirarchy.

I agree that the right Troop Guide and Den Chief are critical. However, if a boy can understand how to be the SPL it should be able to understand the role of Troop Guide and Den Chief.

As far as these positions being somewhat outside the overall hierarchy, I would agree that only the Den Chief fits into that description since they are also following guidelines of the pack. The Troop Guide needs to follow the hierarchy of the Troop (i.e., the SPL) otherwise they might end up compeating with each other.

[ASM-142]

Den Chief (whenever posible we have the Den Chief follow the boys all the way from Wolfs to First Class)

Why would a Den Chief follow the boys all the way to First Class. Once the boys are in the Troop they should be following their PL, SPL, and Troop Guide.

[West]

The Den Chief becomes their Troop Guide (assumeing he is willing of course). A friendly well known face makes a world of diffrence.

[teepeeayy]

It seems like the den chief role of staying with the boys "from wolf to first class" means they keep that hold that job for at least 4 years. While they're filling that role, is there an opportunity to fill other leadership positions like PL, QM, etc?

I ask because my son just finished his first den meeting as den chief....with wolves. I was pondering the future, how long to stay den chief, when I read this post.

This is a mental ping pong match, while I'm not sure I'd want him to stay with a den that long, there's a lot to be said for continuity.

Thoughts?

[ASM-142]

In the long run I think that it is better to have different Den Chiefs. Cubs and new Boy Scouts need to be able to adjust to different leaders.

[West]

My thought is if he likes it, he should keep doing it. If he becomes SPL and still wants to help out the Cub Scouts I don't think anyone should say no. I've yet to see a Cub Pack with the problem of to many Den Chiefs. I was one from the time I was 12 until I was 17. During that time I was also a PL, APL, ASPL, and SPL. I still consider Den Chief (and troop guide) to be the most important position I ever held. The Den Chiefing did not interfere with the Troop Duties, as they were on seperate nights and I was willing to put in the time to prepare for both.

However if your son dosn't have the time to do both or wants a change, then it's time to change. Den Chief is a pretty thankless job from a troop prespective. However, I found it very satisfing when my guys fresh from Webelos beat all the other patrols in our troop at the Klondike Derby (though I was a little disapointed in my own patrol- all Star or above at that point).

[BM_Crawford]

The right Troop Guide and Den Chief can really make the program for the new guys. The wrong person in that positon will drive all the boys away. It's just to much for a 14 year old SPL to consider and even understand on his own. The other reason is that these positions don't fit directly into the troop leadership structure anyway, they have a very important role- it's just somewhat outside the overall hirarchy.

I agree that the right Troop Guide and Den Chief are critical. However, if a boy can understand how to be the SPL it should be able to understand the role of Troop Guide and Den Chief.

As far as these positions being somewhat outside the overall hierarchy, I would agree that only the Den Chief fits into that description since they are also following guidelines of the pack. The Troop Guide needs to follow the hierarchy of the Troop (i.e., the SPL) otherwise they might end up compeating with each other.

Actually if you look at the set-up of a troop the troop guide doesn't report to the SPL in any way but rather directly to an ASM

[West]

Exactly, and qutie frankly if the SPL and Troop guide are doing their jobs they can't compeate with each other. It just isn't possible. All the troop guide does is teach and provide an example for the boys. That only helps your SPL, who's job isn't to teach the young boys but run the troop. In additon, being elected SPL in no way means the boy understands the full responsibility of the Den Chief or Troop Guide. That's a job you have to do before you really understand it.

[Woodbadgegirl]

My son became a Den Chief last September when his brother joined Tigers. I'm the den leader, so I felt if he wanted to be a Den Chief why not in my den. He really enjoys it and plan to stay with the boys until they cross over into Boy Scouts. He serve 4 months not to long ago as a PL because he was the only first class in his patrol that was able to be PL and hated every minute of it. During that time he remained a den chief and helped within the den. The boys look up to him.

At Day Camp last summer, my son went with the den and they all had a good time. Since he is the only Den Chief in the Pack right now, all the other boys enjoyed him too. I had a mother come up to me after day Camp was over and thank me for such a nice Boy Scout. Her son was going to quit scouts after camp, but after meeting my son and talking about scouts, he decided to stay on.

Den Chiefs (good ones) hold an important part in the Pack. They set an example of what scouts are suppose to be and encourage the Cubs to crossover into Boy Scouts.

That's my two cents worth!!

[BM_Crawford]

I agree with both of you. Though I never was a Den Cheif I was a troop guide. The two possitions act as the teachers of the younger scouts whether it be in cub scouts or in boy scouts. It's nothing like SPL which I also served just last year from fall to spring. They are completely different and I couldn't compare them in likeness if I had too.

As far as being a Den Cheif and a PL I don't see any problem with that. I just think if there is a poisition inside the troop that someone else can fill then they should get the experience, but if your son was the only one qualified than more power to him so to speak lol

[ASM-142]

Actually if you look at the set-up of a troop the troop guide doesn't report to the SPL in any way but rather directly to an ASM

Everything that I have ever read and been taught is that all boy report to the SPL including the Troop Guide.