Number of refrence letters for EBOR

[lifescoutforlife]

Is there any certian # of reference letters that have to be turned in before a EBOR can take place?

[Mrw]

Five in our neck of the woods. I usually recommend that we ask for 7-8 since that way you don't need to chase after anyone. There is always one person who never quite gets things done.....

[smtroop168]

Is there any certian # of reference letters that have to be turned in before a EBOR can take place?

REQUIREMENT 2. Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life. List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf.

No. There is no requirement for any letters of recommendation. The Eagle Application asks for 6 references (5 if no employer). What the Council rules are from there is their call but there is no standard. Some councils call the references and don't use letters. Since the Scout has no control over whether the letters are returned (kinda like Cit in Nation letter to your Congressman), an EBOR can proceed without them.

[scoutaholic]

The requirement is to simply provide names of people who could give a reference.

Our council makes no attempt to get actual references. If there is a name in the space on the Eagle application, that is enough. I'm sure hundreds of names have been on those Eagle applications and the people had no idea they were listed as a reference.

[ccjj]

Our council mails a letter to the individual listed as a reference, asking them to write some things about the candidate and send it back. They usually won't schedule the EBOR until all the letters come back to the council office.

ccjj

[VenturingL]

This is extremely timely -

My son ages out on the 10th, is trying to get his scout master conference scheduled. He was told yesterday he needed the 3 letters of reference. The NESA workbook is very clear, in my opinion, in that the names & contact information is what is required. It specifies the scout is not to be involved with the actual information (keeps objectivity better?) and that the method of contact is up to the BOR - since we don't know who those individuals are at this point, how can we guess what method they would want? Plus the NESA workbook also says the references are not seen outside of the BOR committee. I think this is one of the more unfortunate cases of "tribal knowledge" taking root, and what National puts forth (you HAVE to use the NESA workbook (or reasonable facsimile) after all) is not actually looked at or considered.

[smtroop168]

Each council handles references as they want. Here are two different takes from the NESA web site. The 1st is the PDF (2006)version and the 2nd is the DOC (2008) version but both are "current". The last sentence from the PDF was removed from the DOC version.

When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application.

If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses.

The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

18-927E

When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist. The council determines the method or methods to be used. The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center.

18-936

[evmori]

Is there any certian # of reference letters that have to be turned in before a EBOR can take place?

The Eagle candidate is not required to get any letters of recommendation. He is only required to list those who would give him a recommendation.

[Bill Pitcher]

The SM can NOT require that an Eagle Candidate have his reference letters at a SM Conference. It is the council's responsibility to collect them (by letter, form or phone check-list). The EBoR members are the only people who see them, not the candidate OR THE SM! You've listed another case of people "adding toothe requirements."

[Mrw]

In our Council, the letters are sent in to Council with the application.

I will send out requests as the troop advancement chair and have letters returned to me. I have a form letter and send stamped, self addressed return envelopes that seem to encourage prompter responses. When I have received them, they go to the scout and are included in his package to go downtown. The scout is told the letters are to remain sealed and that both for Eagle and any other time in his life when references are contacted, the contents of the recommendation are only for the entity wanting the recommendation and he should never expect to see what was said.

That is a little life lesson that they all find quite surprising.

[Nuts4Scouts]

My son ages out on the 10th, is trying to get his scout master conference scheduled. He was told yesterday he needed the 3 letters of reference.

I think the pertinent part of The 12 Steps from Life to Eagle is -

A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered.

This would apply also to a Troop Advancement Chair, Scoutmaster, and Scoutmaster Confrence (which should have nothing to do with references at this point at all).

[VenturingL]

My son turned 18 today. SMC was last night! It was originally scheduled for last Tuesday, which is still cutting it close, but SM was out of town until then. On Monday he was asked by Eagle Advisor (who had also been out of town) if he had the 3 letters of recommendation & my son said he did not. Advisor informed him that he could not sign off project without them, and therefore, SM could not schedule SMC. My son read him the paragraph from 12 Steps From Life to Eagle that states it is the BOR's responsibility to make contact, the information is for their eyes only, & the scout is never to be part of the transmittal of the information. I don't know what the next question was, but I heard my son politely reply that he since he was required to use NESA published workbook, and that's what it said, he was simply following what National had put in writing. Advisor was not happy; troop has done it differently for 15 years. My son met with advisor that evening & at the end of meeting, advisor admitted my son did not have to get the letters. (Until then my husband was ready to drive to Irving & camp out at National if necessary to get answers.) My son had ANOTHER meeting on Tuesday (thank goodness teacher in-service day & had no school during the day) to explain to ANOTHER adult what National says is the process. Will troop make this a permanent change?? Time will tell. I do plan to take the troop's home-made manual and go through it page-by-page and red-line anything that is in direct conflict with National. I was advised by the SM last spring that if I had any issues, I needed to bring them up at a Committee Meeting. My son was concerned he would be the victim of backlash if I pursued before he had all the signatures. I know, you would expect adults to behave better, but he was too close on time to risk.

[wagionvigil]

Again this is very common. " Well we operate our troop this way and the stuff from National is only a guide." Very sad that BSA will not take a stand and eliminate these so called leaders.

[ThunderingWind]

Our council mails a letter to the individual listed as a reference, asking them to write some things about the candidate and send it back. They usually won't schedule the EBOR until all the letters come back to the council office. ccjj

How long does your Council wait for these letters? How many follow ups to they send out before they decide that there will be no response? Does your Council view a "no repsonse" as a negative recommendation? Does your Council clearly define this policy for all Eagle candidates, parents, SMs etc.....

[ThunderingWind]

AVery sad that BSA will not take a stand and eliminate these so called leaders.

Yes, very sad indeed.

[evmori]

I do plan to take the troop's home-made manual and go through it page-by-page and red-line anything that is in direct conflict with National.

I'd collect up all the outstanding copies of this manual & use them to help start the next campfire.

[FieldSports]

I was just struck by a life lesson to pass on to the youth.

Teach the youth the rules and then have them stand up for them. The leaders that are not following the rules do so for years on end, because no one stands up and challenges them. The youth did that, and was able to move forward. What a great lesson for him.

Will Councils ignore the youth who calls and states that his leader is not following the rules? I think that would carry even greater weight than if the parents were calling. Cast a bright light and the rats run.

[smtroop168]

My son turned 18 today. SMC was last night! It was originally scheduled for last Tuesday, which is still cutting it close, but SM was out of town until then. On Monday he was asked by Eagle Advisor (who had also been out of town) if he had the 3 letters of recommendation & my son said he did not. Advisor informed him that he could not sign off project without them, and therefore, SM could not schedule SMC. My son read him the paragraph from 12 Steps From Life to Eagle that states it is the BOR's responsibility to make contact, the information is for their eyes only, & the scout is never to be part of the transmittal of the information. I don't know what the next question was, but I heard my son politely reply that he since he was required to use NESA published workbook, and that's what it said, he was simply following what National had put in writing. Advisor was not happy; troop has done it differently for 15 years. My son met with advisor that evening & at the end of meeting, advisor admitted my son did not have to get the letters. (Until then my husband was ready to drive to Irving & camp out at National if necessary to get answers.) My son had ANOTHER meeting on Tuesday (thank goodness teacher in-service day & had no school during the day) to explain to ANOTHER adult what National says is the process. Will troop make this a permanent change?? Time will tell. I do plan to take the troop's home-made manual and go through it page-by-page and red-line anything that is in direct conflict with National. I was advised by the SM last spring that if I had any issues, I needed to bring them up at a Committee Meeting. My son was concerned he would be the victim of backlash if I pursued before he had all the signatures. I know, you would expect adults to behave better, but he was too close on time to risk.

Another incredible story of adults adding to the requirements. Although it appears they have never read the workbook, they are clueless. How can this guy be an Eagle Advisor???

What does getting letters of recommendation (even if they were required and they aren't) have to do with getting his EP signed off???

You can probably red-line their rules all you want but you'll run out of red ink.

You may want to consider requesting a EBOR outside the troop if you have any backlash concerns.

Best of luck on his EBOR!

500 posts for me and counting!

[Bill Pitcher]

Hey VenturingL . . .did your son have his EBoR yet? Did he pass? What did the EBoR finally decide about the reference letters? Update, please!!

[VenturingL]

He is scheduled for Nov. 13. He has been given addressed, stamped envelopes to give to his references. Their letters of recommendation will not touch his hands. They are going to his advisor who will match them up with his copies of workbook and application for the BOR personnel. Will keep you posted when all is done.