LDS Comments from "Troop Bylaws That Violate BSA Policy" Thread

[scoutaholic]

How about this list from the CO:

1) 11-year-olds are not a part of the troop - they opperate as an independant patrol
2) 11-year-olds do not attend/participate in troop meetings/activities
3) 11-year-olds can only camp 3 times in a year and only one night each time
4) 11-year-olds cannot camp with the troop
5) The 11-year-old leader (ASM) cannot work with nor consult with the SM nor Troop Committee
6) The SM and ASMs cannot take their own 11-year-old sons to troop camp (see 1,2,&4 above)
7) The SPL is appointed by the CO leadership with no regard for SM input, leadership ability, or interest in scouting
8) The SPL is the oldest boy in the troop
9) Every boy of age in the CO church is part of the troop
10) Every boy of age who lives in the geographical boundaries of the CO is part of the troop - we don't care if they like us or have any interest or have found a different troop
11) The troop must attend the summer camp the CO plans and no other - We don't care if this disqualifies the troop for Quality Unit and Year-Round-Camping awards, and we don't care about following BSA safety rules. (Don't tell the council it is church camp, because they won't issue a tour permit for church camps.)
12) When a boy turns 14 he must join the varsity team and is no longer allowed to participate in meetings/activities with the troop.

[ronin718]

Scoutaholic, looks like you have some real issues with the LDS program. Most of your list is how the LDS folks run their program. Items 5, 6, 8, and 11 are local issues, but the rest is how they choose to operate. For item 6, the LDS rule is 11 y/o Scouts are allowed to attend when the parent goes with them. Items 8, 11, and 12 relate to the functioning and organization of the young men's program.

If you don't like the way the LDS folks run their program, join a community troop. That's what my son and I did. BSA allows it, so that's the way it's done.

[kwildman]

without bashing anyone's religious beliefs.... can somebody explain to me why BSA allows this. I think the program should be the program. It as if there are two different organizations. Since they allow the LDS to do these things I dont see why any other CO cant just make up their own requirements.

[wagionvigil]

"12 When a boy turns 14 he must join the varsity team and is no longer allowed to participate in meetings/activities with the troop"[quote][/quote]

Ok This would make better sense to me if it was at 14 mandatory move to Venturing. Of course I am not sure if LDS Troops use Venturing.

[smtroop168]

Wagion....some do around here. The "best" crew I know of is run by a retire Marine Colonel and his wife sponsored by the LDS. Two LDS churches feed boys to the crew.

can somebody explain to me why BSA allows this.

May have something to do with "guaranteed" membership????

[wagionvigil]

LDS Is the Largest Sponsor of Troops.

[scoutaholic]

Scoutaholic, looks like you have some real issues with the LDS program. Most of your list is how the LDS folks run their program. Items 5, 6, 8, and 11 are local issues, but the rest is how they choose to operate. For item 6, the LDS rule is 11 y/o Scouts are allowed to attend when the parent goes with them. Items 8, 11, and 12 relate to the functioning and organization of the young men's program.

If you don't like the way the LDS folks run their program, join a community troop. That's what my son and I did. BSA allows it, so that's the way it's done.

I'm well aware of the LDS version of scouting. I was SM of an LDS troop for 10 years. When the 'local issues' got worse is when I started having issues. I even talked with the head of the LDS-BSA relations department at church headquarters several times about these issues. In the end, the 'local issues' got bad enough that I had to tell them I was not able to continue doing LDS scouting. (I believe I ranted about some of this in a different thread, so won't go into details here.)

Some of the things I mentioned ARE church policies, but it doesn't mean they should be. With good local church leadership, it is possible to run a decent (although probably not top-notch) scouting program within the church guidelines. I thought my local church leaders who are scouters themselves and Woodbadge trained would be able to support such a scouting program, but I learned otherwise.

Your note on #6 was also my previous understanding, but that is not the official church position. The LDS scouting manual was updated 8-10 years ago. It specifies that 11-year-olds cannot be included in the camps even if the parent attends. (The head of the LDS-BSA relations department agrees that the best way to implement this new rule was probably NOT hiding it in a new manual and never mentioning it.) BTW, this manual is officially designated as guidelines that are up to interpretation and implementation at the discression of local church leadership.

[scoutaholic]

LDS Is the Largest Sponsor of Troops.

...and packs and teams and crews. Unfortunately many of these units only exist on paper. Every local unit of the church sponsors (or is supposed to) a pack, troop, team, and crew. Just having the unit and paying registrations doesn't mean they actually DO scouting in those units.

Some LDS units are a waste of paper and money. Some LDS units make feable attempts at running a scouting program. A few LDS units actually succeed at running a decent scouting program. Very few (if any) LDS units run a top-notch scouting program.

In my 10 years as an LDS SM, my troop usually fit in the 'decent scouting program' category. Prior to my time, the unit was usually in the 'feable attempts' category. It never reached 'top-notch' and probably never will, because of the problems inherent with LDS scouting policies and procedures. It remains to be seen how the new SM will do at keeping the 'decent' status, and how long the local church leadership will let him do it.

[scoutaholic]

...The "best" crew I know of is run by a retire Marine Colonel and his wife sponsored by the LDS. Two LDS churches feed boys to the crew....

This is an anomaly in LDS scouting.

Rarely will you see a female leader to LDS scouts over 11-year-old.
The practice of two LDS churches feeding a single scouting unit is discouraged (and not entirely following the LDS guidelines).

Apparently the local LDS church leadership is interpretting the LDS guidelines differently, or they are pretending that they don't know these particular guidelines.

[smtroop168]

Dunno but she was presented the Silver Beaver or a Venture equivalent last year. I assume the LDS allows female in Ventures????

[smtroop168]

I could be wrong about the double feed to one crew.

[ronin718]

Scoutaholic, I agree with your assessment of the LDS units. Many are pathetic, including the one my son would be in if we stayed with the LDS program. As for the combining of LDS units, they're probably not combined on paper, they probably meet together and run together. There are many instances of that where the unit population is very small. My wife and I were Bear and Webelos leaders for a combined LDS program of two congregational packs. Each had their own charter and shared the leadership responsibilities.

The rule on #6 refers to summer Scout Camp, not regular outings. Regular outings go back to item #3. I don't like it either, and that's another reason why my son and I are in a community troop.

[ronin718]

Dunno but she was presented the Silver Beaver or a Venture equivalent last year. I assume the LDS allows female in Ventures????

Nope, they don't. Women are typically only included in the Cub program. Boy Scouts is run under the Young Men's program, and there are no females included that program.

[smtroop168]

I'll ask her at the next Roundtable what te scoop is.

[scoutaholic]

Dunno but she was presented the Silver Beaver or a Venture equivalent last year. I assume the LDS allows female in Ventures????

I've never heard of a Coed LDS Crew. If such a thing exists, the local leadership is definately ignoring church policies.

[ThunderingWind]

How about this list from the CO:
10) Every boy of age who lives in the geographical boundaries of the CO is part of the troop - we don't care if they like us or have any interest or have found a different troop

How does the LDS church get all the boys names, addresses, parents data etc. to complete an application? We are not an LDS family but you are saying that my son is incuded on the charter of the local LDS body?

Talk about a numbers game. No wonder the Council and above does not want rock the boat - the BSA would lose all these over-inflated membership numbers and the precious funding that goes along with it.

I think my lawyer needs to pay a call on the local unit (and every unit where we lived).

[SARCASIM]I think I just found my way out of the stock market crash of 2008!!!!!![/SARCASIM]

[FrankJ]

How does the LDS church get all the boys names, addresses, parents data etc. to complete an application? We are not an LDS family but you are saying that my son is incuded on the charter of the local LDS body?

I believe he meant the boys that are members of the LDS church. So your son would only be included if he was LDS. I would think that they would still need signatures though.

[scoutaholic]

How about this list from the CO:
10) Every boy of age who lives in the geographical boundaries of the CO is part of the troop - we don't care if they like us or have any interest or have found a different troop

How does the LDS church get all the boys names, addresses, parents data etc. to complete an application? We are not an LDS family but you are saying that my son is incuded on the charter of the local LDS body?...

According to the general church policy, then your boy is included on the local LDS Troop charter.

In actual application of the policy, I'm not sure if/how it is done. In most cases, your son would probably not have been added to the charter without an application being filled out by you and/or your son. The church does try to be aware of who lives in the area and would probably contact you when your son was of age. In areas with large concentrations of LDS people, your neighbors probably know enough about you and your family to get name/address/etc information. Then all they would need from you is birthdate and a signature.

I do know of some cases where a boy was added to the charter without an application form.

[Mrw]

10) Every boy of age who lives in the geographical boundaries of the CO is part of the troop - we don't care if they like us or have any interest or have found a different troop

How does the LDS church get all the boys names, addresses, parents data etc. to complete an application? We are not an LDS family but you are saying that my son is incuded on the charter of the local LDS body?...

According to the general church policy, then your boy is included on the local LDS Troop charter.

In actual application of the policy, I'm not sure if/how it is done. In most cases, your son would probably not have been added to the charter without an application being filled out by you and/or your son. The church does try to be aware of who lives in the area and would probably contact you when your son was of age. In areas with large concentrations of LDS people, your neighbors probably know enough about you and your family to get name/address/etc information. Then all they would need from you is birthdate and a signature.

I do know of some cases where a boy was added to the charter without an application form.

I find this rather creepy and disturbing.

[ThunderingWind]

According to the general church policy, then your boy is included on the local LDS Troop charter.

I find this rather creepy and disturbing.

Me, too. Time to have the lawyer check up on the local group. I think this needs to be made public as in take out full page ads in USA Today telling everyone that these units are inflating the numbers by enrolling boys who do not even know they are enrolled and not even part of the Chartered Organization.

Something about free will here and privacy that has me ready to pounce and ask questions later.

Spooky, man, real spooky.