Patrol Position count twd Rank?

[Banks747]

Here's a question concerning which positions satisify the troop leadership requirements? The list includes quartermaster and scribe. Our troop has these positions within each patrol, as well as for the Troop. Does holding one of these positions in his own patrol for the time required in the handbook satisfy the requirements for rank?

[t305spl]

If he is in that position yes. If he was awarded the patch and is assigned in that position either in the patrol or troop its still that position. So yes both qualify to cover that req.

[dparker]

Interesting this question came up now. I have TroopMaster and our boys just had elections, so I was entering in the new positions. TM said that APL does not count towards the leadership requirement, per the Scout Handbook. Anyone else heard this? I don't have a handbook, well, handy, or I would check myself.

[OldGreyBear]

Assistant Patrol Leader does not count as a Position of Responsibility, not to be confused with Assistant Senior Patrol Leader which does count as a position of responsiblity.

[Banks747]

Right - Assistant patrol leader doesn't count. It isn't in the list of positions. That much is clear. What's not clear is if being a scribe or quartermaster for your PATROL counts. I tend to think NOT, and think many will agree. The absence of the assistant patrol leader on the list really makes that point, if you think about it. Patrol level versions of these two positions are probably of equal or lesser responsibility than the assistant patrol leader job, which is explicitly left out. If patrol level positions satisfied the requirement, seems like the assistant patrol leader would be on the list. Don't know.... I'd hate for it to come up during an Eagle Scout Board of Review.

[PaulSWolf]

t305spl is incorrect. Only Troop Positions of Responsibility count toward advancement.

PATROL positions, except Patrol Leader, do NOT count toward advancement.

Patrol Leader is considered a TROOP position, since the PLs serve on the PLC in addition to their duties within the Patrols.

Thus Patrol QM, Patrol Scribe, Patrol Historian, etc., would NOT count toward advancement.

[OldGreyBear]

Paul, Just messing with you, what if a troop only had patrol quartermasters and expected them to come together and work as a units with the troops equipment. There would be no Troop Quartermaster, only patrol, in that situation would it count ?

[wagionvigil]

If the SM wants it to count it counts he just cannot remove any positions from the list.

[commish3]

I think if you read the exact requirement as it appears in the Boy Scout Handbook it will answer three misconceptions raised so far in this thread.

"While a ---------Scout, serve actively for ---- months in one or more of the following positions of responsibility (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop):
* Boy Scout troop
Patrol leader,
assistant senior patrol leader,
senior patrol leader,
troop guide,
Order of the Arrow troop representative,
den chief,
scribe,
librarian,
historian,
quartermaster,
bugler,
junior assistant Scoutmaster,
chaplain aide, or
instructor.

Misconception 1. "The scout must hold a position" is not the requirement. The requirement is to serve actively in the position. Merely holding the office does not meet the requirtement.

Misconception 2. "Does a patrol position count?" No, the requirement lists Troop positions, and a Patrol is different than a troop.

Misconception 3. "A patrol position counts if the SM wants it to" suggesting that the patrol position can be counted as the Scoutmaster assigned leadership project. This is not true since the project, according to the requirement, must be one that benefits the entire troop not just an individual patrol.

Hope this helps.

[optimist]

I'm sorry but I must disagree for two reasons. Reason #1, the requirement itself does not state that unitwide positions must be used, it only points out the names of acceptable positions within a "Boy Scout troop" and a "Varsity Scout team".

Reason #2, following the rule as stated by Paul and commish3 would cause problems which would increase in scale as a troop got larger. Here are three examples:

Troop A has 25 Scouts and four patrols. Their obvious troopwide leadership positions include four patrol leaders, one senior patrol leader, one assistant senior patrol leader, one troop guide, one Order of the Arrow troop representative, one scribe, one librarian, one historian, and one quartermaster. This leaves 13 Scouts who either wouldn't hold a leadership position or could serve in the remaining five "troopwide" positions (bugler, den chief, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, and instructor) or do a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project. Admittedly, having one or two, possibly even three Scouts in those positions would be neither unusual nor burdensome.

Troop B has 50 Scouts and seven patrols. Their obvious troopwide leadership positions include seven patrol leaders, one senior patrol leader, one assistant senior patrol leader, two troop guides, one Order of the Arrow troop representative, one scribe, one librarian, one historian, and one quartermaster. This leaves 35 Scouts who either wouldn't hold a leadership position or could serve in the remaining five "troopwide" positions (bugler, den chief, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, and instructor) or do a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project. With the exception of Den Chief (a position where most responsibility occurs outside the troop and thus does not directly affect the troop), having around half a dozen Scouts in each of these positions would be nearly impossible to coordinate and little if any actual leadership would occur.

Troop C has 100 Scouts and fourteen patrols. Their obvious troopwide leadership positions include fourteen patrol leaders, one senior patrol leader, one assistant senior patrol leader, four troop guides, one Order of the Arrow troop representative, one scribe, one librarian, one historian, and one quartermaster. This leaves 75 Scouts who either wouldn't hold a leadership position or would have to serve in one of the remaining five "troopwide" positions (bugler, den chief, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, and instructor) or do a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project.

Given the above, advancement beyond First Class in troop B would be difficult, in troop C nearly impossible. It's either that or you start handing out instructor positions like candy and that wouldn't accomplish anything. The patrol method is the basis of Scouting and Scouts in patrol leadership positions should be fulfilling important leadership responsibilities in their patrols on a regular basis just as their troopwide counterparts should be doing for the whole troop.

[wagionvigil]

Ya beat me Old Mighty Optomist I was going to ask where does it say unitwide. It only has a list of positions and no where does it say it is a troop or a patrol position.

[commish3]

I respectfully disagree.

You leave out the factor that a percentage of these scouts are
A) below the rank of First Class and not in need of a troop position for advancement
B) not active enough to serve in a leadership position,
C) not interested at this time in advancement beyond the rank they hold, D) lack the skills or attitude to be elected or selected to a position.
E) already have fulfilled the requirement in a previous term.
F) the troop depending on its needs and size are allowed to have multiple troop guides, den chiefs, instructors, quartermasters, junior assistant scoutmasters, and ASPLs. I have even seen a troop with a bugler corps
G) finally, several scouts can be meeting the requirements through SM assigned projects that benefit the troop.

So it would be easy for any troop, of any size, to have enough opportunities available for any scouting seeking advancement.

The reuirement says "in a troop". And the BSA makes a definite distinction between patrols and troops. Patrols are entirely dfferent animals and are treated as such in every aspect of Boy Scouting.

See page 172 of the Boy Scout Handbook.

[Rick Tyler]

Troop C has 100 Scouts and fourteen patrols. Their obvious troopwide leadership positions include fourteen patrol leaders, one senior patrol leader, one assistant senior patrol leader, four troop guides, one Order of the Arrow troop representative, one scribe, one librarian, one historian, and one quartermaster. This leaves 75 Scouts who either wouldn't hold a leadership position or would have to serve in one of the remaining five "troopwide" positions (bugler, den chief, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, and instructor) or do a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project.

As usual, I agree with Commish. I also wanted to note that I recently left a troop with 85 boys, so I can speak to the staff of a size "C" Troop:

SPL
three ASPLs
nine PLs
five Instructors
four Troop Guides
Scribe
Historian
Chaplain's Aide
Bugler
four Junior Assistant Scoutmasters
OA Rep.
Quartermaster (and we should have had two)
two Den Chiefs

We had 34 boys in a Position of Responsibility when I left. That's more than one out of three, and since approximately 30 of our Scouts were lower than First Class and another 15-20 were already Life Scouts with the POR requirement complete at the time, there was no practical shortage of PORs. A couple of boys were working on Scoutmaster-assigned service projects because they preferred that to a POR, and the SM had projects he wanted done.

I don't think unit size has much practical effect on the availability of POR opportunities. Bigger units need more help. I certainly wouldn't start violating clear advancement guidelines in the Boy Scout Handbook just to find more jobs (like Asst. Patrol Leader).

[t305spl]

Yes the requirement does say in a Troop, but correct me if im wrong a Patrol is in a troop. So technically it does not say anywhere patrol positions do or do not count. If you are given the position and its called one of the ones listed and you are known to the patrols as that, you satisfy that requirment. PLease show me where it says PATROL positions do not count. As far as I know I have been in 2 troops and none had a Troop Quartermaster just Patrol Quartermasters. I would count this as completing the requirement.
And please PAULSWOLF dont say im incorrect. You have not shown proof all you have shown is how you interpret it. Which is fine but just give a different opinion dont say im wrong.
From everything I have read they have said "in a troop" nothing about not allowing it to pass as a Patrol Position too.

[commish3]

if you look at the requirement under the life rank it is even more specific saying
"While a Star Scout, serve actively for six months in one or more of the troop positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout "

That should show definitively that the requirement refers to troop and not patrol offices.

Thinking beyond the needs of your own patrol and serving the needs of the greater community (the troop) is part of the citizenship training of the Boy Scout program. If the patrol offices were acceptable to the requirement then the BSa could have easily said "serve actively in any of the following troop or patrol positions of responsibility", but that is not what the requirement reads. You cannot add to or subtract from the requirement. It specifies troop office.

To say "Please show me where it says PATROL positions do not count." as a way of proving that they do, is a logic fallicy called of false dilemma specifically called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" or argument of ignorance. It says that since you cannot prove what I say is false, then it must be true.
For example since you cannot prove that ghosts do not exist, then they must. But that is not a logical conclusion. So the inability to disprove a statement does not make the statement true.

Is a patrol a part of a troop? Well sort of. That would be more accurate if a troop was divided into patrols. But that in fact is a perception to many and a misconception to most. In fact a tropp only exists when patrols gather. As B-P said and it is still taught in Scoutmaster training today, a troop is not divided into patrols, patrols gather to form a troop. It is similar to neighborhoods. A neighborhood exists only when families gather in close proximity. But a family is not a neighborhood in and of itself and being a member ofr even a leader of a family is not the same as being a leader of a community working for the good of all families.

The same holds true for troop and patrol offices.

[Rick Tyler]

And please PAULSWOLF dont say im incorrect.

Let me introduce you to Paul. Mr. Wolf is the manager of the Advancement section of the US Scouting Service Project. He is Wood Badge trained, and has been running Scouting sites on the Internet since before the Web. He serves as a District Advancement Chairman, and Boy Scout District Committee Chairman. He has been a Scoutmaster and Pack Committee Chairman and been an active Scout leader roughly since the end of the last Ice Age. Paul is regularly in contact with the folks at BSA national who set the advancement policies and procedures.

In the last four years I've been sharing various Scouting discussion groups with Paul I can't think of a single time where he has been factually incorrect. (I have seen him in spirited disagreements about some of the more arcane points of advancement -- like the definition of the term "active" -- but never in a purely factual discussion.)

If Paul says it, and you can't find a different position in the written BSA Rules and Regulations, you would be wise to accept that it is true. For example, I imagine that Paul is one of the few posters on this board who even has a copy of the Rules and Regulations.

I'm not trying to smack you for your comment, just let you know that there are several people here who have more than just opinions.

[PaulSWolf]

And please PAULSWOLF dont say im incorrect.

Let me introduce you to Paul. Mr. Wolf is the manager of the Advancement section of the US Scouting Service Project. He is Wood Badge trained, and has been running Scouting sites on the Internet since before the Web. He serves as a District Advancement Chairman, and Boy Scout District Committee Chairman.

Actually I serve on the District Advancement Committee and District Committee, but not as Chairman of either.

He has been a Scoutmaster and Pack Committee Chairman and been an active Scout leader roughly since the end of the last Ice Age.

Since 1983

Paul is regularly in contact with the folks at BSA national who set the advancement policies and procedures.

In the last four years I've been sharing various Scouting discussion groups with Paul I can't think of a single time where he has been factually incorrect. (I have seen him in spirited disagreements about some of the more arcane points of advancement -- like the definition of the term "active" -- but never in a purely factual discussion.)

If Paul says it, and you can't find a different position in the written BSA Rules and Regulations, you would be wise to accept that it is true. For example, I imagine that Paul is one of the few posters on this board who even has a copy of the Rules and Regulations.

I'm not trying to smack you for your comment, just let you know that there are several people here who have more than just opinions.

Thanks Rick.

[Scouting179]

While the advancement requirements do not specifically state that a job (such as quartermaster) must be on a TROOP level, it is clearly implied by the fact that APL does NOT count toward serving actively in a troop leadership position. If APL doesn't count, why should a patrol QM (or whaterever) count?

There is a way to get around this: make more than one Librarian, QM, etc on a TROOP level and then delegate more specific responibilites as needed by your troop. Many troops do something similar when they assign specific Asst. SMs to a specific patrol.

[Rick Tyler]

There is a way to get around this: make more than one Librarian, QM, etc on a TROOP level and then delegate more specific responibilites as needed by your troop. Many troops do something similar when they assign specific Asst. SMs to a specific patrol.

That's a good idea, especially for megatroops. I know our old troop could have used a Quartermaster just for the canoes, paddles, and related gear, and two more for maintaining all the gear in the Quartermaster's 10x20 storage shed.

I would also like to see Troop Cheermaster as a formal position of responsibility. Someone to help the patrols find resources for skits, lead campfire singing, etc. would be just as useful as Bugler or Historian.

[West]

Yeah, but the name 'Cheermaster' is no good, sounds like girl scouts.