Number of refrence letters for EBOR

[VenturingL]

Saga continues... I just received an email from his mentor that his EBOR was being canceled because all of his reference letters have not been received. I copied & pasted #6 form the 12 Steps from Life to Eagle form the pdf version of the Eagle Project Workbook (don't know why sentence about not postponing for letters is not in Word version) and sent it in a reply email. Waiting on response, but I'm not hopeful. Don't know when it will be rescheduled at this point.

[smtroop168]

I did email National and point out the different wording between the DOC and PDF files on the NESA website. I need to follow up.

[smtroop168]

Upon further thought...Enough of this silliness....I would inform the Troop immediately that you were appealing their decision to cancel his EBOR to the District/Council and take it out of their hands now. Call your DE/SE tomorrow and inform them that your letter will be in their office Monday morning.

[Bill Pitcher]

This is crazy, crazy, crazy! Ask around and find out if this is the way all of the council's Eagle candidates are treated this way, or is it just THIS district's Eagle mentor's way. Then, meet with the DAC and the CE and fix it. It may be "rocking the boat" but BSA policy states that the candidate SHOULD NOT be acquiring or transporting his own references. Keep us posted!

[Billiken]

Our district advancement chair gave a presentation two nights ago at RT about the Eagle process.
Per national policy:

"The Eagle Scout application and EBOR can not be delayed because of the absence of reference letters."

"The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the person listed as a reference on the Eagle Scout Rank Application either by letter, form, or telephone checklist."

He also told us that last year our district held and EBOR for a scout who did not have a SM Conference.
Apparently, the SM in question felt the Scout not worthy of Eagle and refused to conduct a conference.
Lovely....now becasue of the SM unwilling to even talk, there's an Eagle Scout with a tainted experience and memory of Scouting.

[AquilaNegra2]

He also told us that last year our district held and EBOR for a scout who did not have a SM Conference.
Apparently, the SM in question felt the Scout not worthy of Eagle and refused to conduct a conference.
Lovely....now becasue of the SM unwilling to even talk, there's an Eagle Scout with a tainted experience and memory of Scouting.

I think the SM might know the Scout's experience best. I'd want to probe further before dismissing his insight. It's odd that he doesn't want to talk about it, but I'm sure there's something more.

[cballman]

If the scoutmaster signed the application then he signed it knowing that the conference was not done. It is not the scouts fault on that one. Being me on the canceling of the EBOR I would probley call the scout exceutive and explain and to him what National says and then ask him to explain it to me why they are canceling. I would then show up at the appointed time and then explain to whom ever is in charge that since they werent there they would reschedule when the child wants the board and not at there convience. but then again thats me.

[smtroop168]

I don't think I would even give the troop the opportunity at this point as the so called Eagle Mentor has shown a total disregard for the rules and thereby has abdicated his role. The scout is past 18 already.

[cballman]

First thing is that the troop does not put on thethe Eagle Board of Review that is done by the District. The way I would approach this like I said in an earlier post I would make the district people reshedule to the kid not them this time. VenturingL I just noticed that you are from Texas. Being the person I might go straight to National over this and make a precedent and if the child is a real Eagle I would ask if someone from National could just drop by and sit on the board. but then again thats just me. please keep us posted and let us know how it turns out.

[VenturingL]

BOR did not take place; still no word of rescheduling. His Eagle advisor forwarded my email (copied from NESA form/website + statement that the EBOR should proceed) to CC & SM. I received a scathing email - could almost feel the heat off the computer screen- from the SM.

His Eagle advisor stated that he should not have scheduled the EBOR until the letters had been received. The EBOR was being postponed to let District have opportunity to contact references listed on application. Our Council states the EBOR must be held in the district of the unit & that it can be held on unit level as long as at least one member is District level (exact wording can be found on council's website, under Resources>Eagle).

I'm not sure, but I think another step was not done as written in 12 Steps from Life to Eagle - my son did not go back to unit committee, or give application to unit Advancement Chair for unit sign off before giving it and his Eagle project book to his advisor. I know the CC was to have been at the EBOR, but now I wonder how the records were/will be verified. My son has his original cards + copies of all of them with his paperwork he turned in.

On Oct. 28th, his advisor told my son to have everything to him by Nov. 11th. Because my son's handwriting on the application was not good (he has some degree of dysgraphia), had used blue pen on one line, and white-out in at least one place, he needed to redo the application. I love the pdf version on NESA website - the blanks can be filled in on computer. It shrinks long addresses to fit the size of the blank. If scout makes a mistake - type it over. Hit print - so easy! But doing again meant he had to get SM signature again. My son picked up the envelopes for letters of recommendation from advisor that evening. We got them delivered. And then my son went out of town for 5 days for marching band contests. He got back, caught up on school work, & got SM signature on new application on Nov. 10. I took to work on the 11th & made copies. My son delivered everything to his advisor, as requested, the evening of the 11th. His advisor turned in the application to the service center on the 12th. EBOR was to have been the 13th per what we were told.

His advisor says the EBOR was tentatively scheduled. He said he told my son it depended on whether or not the letters were back in time to have it.

Now we are waiting on the letters, or other form of reference check. Troop committee meets this coming Sunday. Don't suggest I go - my "butting in" is part of the SM's complaint. My son has gone from looking forward to registering as a adult with the troop and continuing to work with the TFC scouts to not wanting anything to do with them as soon as EBOR is done. How sad.

SM's email alluded to changes the troop was making because of some of the "new" information I brought up to them. Will be interesting to see what they do.

[cballman]

VenturingL I hope that you can talk to your son and have him understand that just because of one troop dont let scouting go off his list of wants and does. I have also at times it seemed fed to the wolves and guess what I still stop and look at myself and remember that we are doing this for the kids and not the parents or other leaders. The way I would do the Sunday meeting is maybe call someone from the district like the DE and ask him or her to accompany you to the meeting along with copys of the letters from everyone and find out why all of this is happening to a child. Even though he is now over 18 I would document everything and procede to take care of your son and forget what leaders have to go down in the process. As long as you have turned everything in there should be no problem with him getting his EBOR. It sounds like there have been problems with leadership in the past and it now has come to a head.

GOOD LUCK to your son.

[scoutaholic]

... Our Council states the EBOR must be held in the district of the unit & that it can be held on unit level as long as at least one member is District level (exact wording can be found on council's website, under Resources>Eagle).
...

Circle Ten Council requires Eagle Scout boards of review to be conducted on the district level. A district level board of review may be conducted and considered official if held in one of the following two ways:
1. Comprised of Eagle board members selected by the troop and at least one member of the District Advancement Committee.
2. Comprised solely of members of the District Advancement Committee.

It looks like you have to have EBOR in the district, but it doesn't have to involve the troop leadership that is causing all these problems. I would contact your district advancement chairman, and request that a district EBOR be convened.

If the district advancement committee doesn't have enough people for a board, that isn't a problem. (At least not by BSA advancement policies. Your council guidelines don't include this.) Sitting on the EBOR does not require BSA registration. You can have the mayor and governor sit on the board if you wish and they are willing. You could also include your DE, and other members of the district committee who are not normally on the advancement committees.

If the troop leadership won't do it, then get it done with those who will.

[Billiken]

Yesterday (Tuesday, Dec 16) the Greater Cleveland Council refused to accept a completed/signed Eagle Scout application because it did not have one of the reference letters.

One of our SAs, responsible for the Life-to-Eagle process is the father of an Eagle Scout (currently in medical school).
The application rejected was for his younger son.
Needless to say, this particular SA was a little "steamed", to use a polite term.

We've placed a call to the BSA in Texas.

[smtroop168]

Yesterday (Tuesday, Dec 16) the Greater Cleveland Council refused to accept a completed/signed Eagle Scout application because it did not have one of the reference letters.

Completed/signed by the EBOR? The LORs don't ever get turned into our council. They are for EBOR use only and then destroyed. You can't hold up an EBOR if you don't get them back either.

"A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered. BSA Form 18-927E"

[Mrw]

Yesterday (Tuesday, Dec 16) the Greater Cleveland Council refused to accept a completed/signed Eagle Scout application because it did not have one of the reference letters.

One of our SAs, responsible for the Life-to-Eagle process is the father of an Eagle Scout (currently in medical school).
The application rejected was for his younger son.
Needless to say, this particular SA was a little "steamed", to use a polite term.

We've placed a call to the BSA in Texas.

We have never had one kicked back for this, but having the five letters with the packet that gets turned in for date checking etc before the EBOR is what we have been told to expect. I have a form letter I will send to the references the boy gives me, with a stamped envelope addressed to me so I can request and follow up with these people to get them in. I often send out more than the five minimum requests so one lsow responder does not hold everything up. They want five letters, but they do not necessarily need to be by the five references listed on the app. (And since they are not opened by the staff downtown that checks all the dates, etc are valid before the EBOR is set up, they have no way of knowing beforehand who wrote them.)

[smtroop168]

We have never had one kicked back for this, but having the five letters with the packet that gets turned in for date checking etc before the EBOR is what we have been told to expect. I have a form letter I will send to the references the boy gives me, with a stamped envelope addressed to me so I can request and follow up with these people to get them in. I often send out more than the five minimum requests so one lsow responder does not hold everything up. They want five letters, but they do not necessarily need to be by the five references listed on the app. (And since they are not opened by the staff downtown that checks all the dates, etc are valid before the EBOR is set up, they have no way of knowing beforehand who wrote them.)

MRW...I'm guessing based on what you say that this is a pre-EBOR requirement? And aren't you adding to the requirements to have the scout give you more than the number of references required?

If they want five letters and they don't crosscheck and can't open them, just keep 5 envelopes handy with BP, Beard, West, Mazzuca and Wagion handy. It's as ridiculous as their requirement.

[Mrw]

Yes, this is pre EBOR. And I may suggest that if they give me an extra name or two we might not have to chase after someone to get them all returned. But all they need to give is five. And some of the boys go ahead and request their own letters anyway.

The letters are opened by the district guy(s) who sits on their EBOR.

[smtroop168]

And some of the boys go ahead and request their own letters anyway.

The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. BSA forms 927 and 936 under the 12 steps to Eagle.

If you request 10 and 5 return them, what 5 go on the application since it looks like your council requires the letters prior to their certification? Do you redo the application to match the actual letters?

[Bill Pitcher]

Yeah, why pre-EBOR? VERY unusual, to say the least. The boy nor the troop shopuld have anything to do with this. It's the Advancement Committee's or the Council's job to collect these. Our council office manager requests them, based on the names listed on the Eagle App. They are returned in a provided stamped/addressed envelope to the SO and kept sealed until I (as Eagle Mentor and District EBoR chair) get them with all of the paperwork. As quoted above by smtroop168, what you are doing is against BSA policy collecting the references on the troop level!

[wagionvigil]

As quoted above by smtroop168, what you are doing is against BSA policy collecting the references on the troop level!

And we have seen this time and again on this forum. Troops making up their own rules.