Adding to Safe Swim Defense

[biglou]

I know some people here have read about this recent post:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=3047


Would it be possible to add to the Safe Swim Defense Point 3 Safe Swim Area about water temperature? I think is should be common sense not to jump in really cold water. I recently recieved an e-mail stating about doing something like a "Polar Bear Plunge" at Camp. That just seems ridiculous and just downright dumb! This puts all participants at a great health risk for serious hypothermia, shock, hypoxia, loss of consciousness, brain injury, cardiac arrest, and yes death! To be quite honest, I never want to have to go make the phone call and say to a parent "Their child was hurt". This scares the Heebie-jeebies out of me! What can we do here?

[wagionvigil]

Check with your council aquatics director there is an approved temperature range that camps MUST meet. I think it is around 72 at the bottom. Just taking a look at water temperatures in the Yough last week they were around 30 so that would put the yough way below what is allowed.

[biglou]

I did a little bit of research and found this site and am copying the link. I found it to be very interesting. Especially because they mentioned a Scout who was 15 and went into cardiac arrest because of initial shock from exposure to cold water. Here is the link:

http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm


I should also add that it is probably geared for boating, but it still makes sense for the other activities.

[FrankJ]

Realize a polar bear plunge into a lake covered with ice is not the same as what you will typically experience at a summer camp polar bear plunge. Certainly as part of safe swim, you need to be aware of the water temperature, but I see it more of a function of trained supervision rather than codified in a general guide like SSD.

[wagionvigil]

I see it as total stupidity. If adults want to do it fine but No Youth should ever be allowed to take part as part of a scouting function. I wear a wet suit in the Late Spring while Kayaking and the water is 60 or 70. These people have no business in scouting.

[FrankJ]

I see it as total stupidity.

Is this the polar bear plunge in the middle of winter? or at summer camp in June or July? (or both?)

[wagionvigil]

WINTER!

[jr56]

Yikes, I can't imagine any council safety committe approving this one.

[wagionvigil]

Thankyou very Much!
What is sad is that a council Commissioner from a Mid Atlantic State where today the high was 22 seems to think this is a great idea for part of a winter camporee. Are you Kidding Me?

[biglou]

LOL!! No kidding aside here. Some have even suggested doing this for a fundraiser for the OA. One person even said "it was safe and that their Troop has done it!" I don't know what they are even thinking. This is a major liability here and makes me believe that no one has read Safe Swim Defense or the Guide to Safe Scouting!

The only way I would even consider it would be wearing a dry suit for a fire-rescue training class and instructors on hand ready to pull me out. The good thing about this is that I am not the only one here that has a major problem with it! I did check the temperature today and it reached a high of 11 degrees so far. I can only imagine what the air temperature on Saturday is going to be.

[ThunderingWind]

Interesting thread...............

While I understand with and agree that there is risk involved and that this event does not meet ANY of the guidelines for an approved Scout activity.....

I would try it once outside of Scouting. I find the overall experience a personal challenge.

Again, NOT as a Scout activity.

Do I think the Cubbies that did it recently to raise money for their Den Leader (and the adults) planned to openly violate the BSA rules by putting on their shirts - No.
Do I think the Cubbies had their Servant hearts in the right place - Yes.
Do I think every one involved should have this error of oversight explained to them in a calm, no threatening manner - absolutly.

I wish all kids were as giving as those kids that did this. Sure, they could have done something different. But let's use this experience to show them how to channel this desire in a BSA approved manner if they wish to continue to wear their uniforms while serving their communtiy.

[wagionvigil]

Interesting thread...............

While I understand with and agree that there is risk involved and that this event does not meet ANY of the guidelines for an approved Scout activity.....

I would try it once outside of Scouting. I find the overall experience a personal challenge.

Again, NOT as a Scout activity.

Do I think the Cubbies that did it recently to raise money for their Den Leader (and the adults) planned to openly violate the BSA rules by putting on their shirts - No.
Do I think the Cubbies had their Servant hearts in the right place - Yes.
Do I think every one involved should have this error of oversight explained to them in a calm, no threatening manner - absolutly.

I wish all kids were as giving as those kids that did this. Sure, they could have done something different. But let's use this experience to show them how to channel this desire in a BSA approved manner if they wish to continue to wear their uniforms while serving their communtiy.

Although I agree with your points the leadership of this Pack openly defied the councils wishes of "do not wear your uniforms." The Uniforms of the BSA actually belong to the BSA according to the uniforming guide.
I have been in water this time of year. It like having every inch of your body sliced with knives als some body parts disappear for a week or so

[biglou]

I googled "polar bear swim clubs". I found a waiver for this and am posting the link.

http://www.doorbell.net/pbc/waiver.pdf

This particular group even acknowledged that this is a dangerous activity and has risks to it. You have to read this.

Winter "polar bear swims/showers/dunks" whatever you want to call it is just a bad idea! I will have nothing to do with that type of activity. Period.


I found this particular rule on the GTSS. I will post it. It reads

"All participants should know, understand, and respect the rules and procedures for safe winter activity. The applicable rules should be presented and learned before the outing, and all participants should review them just before the activity begins. When Scouts know and understand the reasons for the rules, they will observe them. When fairly and impartially applied, rules do not interfere with fun. Rules for safety, plus common sense and good judgment, keep the fun from being interrupted by tragedy.


Here is the link to all of the rules for safe winter activities.

http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss13.aspx

[Nuts4Scouts]

Although I agree with your points the leadership of this Pack openly defied the councils wishes of "do not wear your uniforms." The Uniforms of the BSA actually belong to the BSA according to the uniforming guide.

Actually, I did not read anything that said the council was either for, or against, this. Somehow I doubt they were ever asked for their approval.

From what I read, the agency that did not want them to wear their uniform shirts was the one running the Plunge. They felt that it would be a safety issue with the shirts holding the freezing water on their skin.

Personally, I am more appalled with the adults dismissing a safety issue as unimportant, than a uniforming one.

[biglou]

Here is a good one for the thread. I recieved an e-mail from an individual in my Council. The Council Commissioner has told everyone that this activity is banned from the Risk Management Committee. This person's response (Not the COUNCIL COMMISSIONER) was "sounds like girl scouts" and he sent it to everyone on the Council e-mail list. I did not bother to send him an e-mail back. It is obvious he could care less about safety of the Scouts.

[wagionvigil]

He may not be the council commissioner much longer if he keeps this up.

[smtroop168]

He may not be the council commissioner much longer if he keeps this up.

I didn't read it as the CC sending out the email, it was some other moron.

[wagionvigil]

I will email you.

[biglou]

I am sorry for the confusion. I will post what the Council Commish sent.

"Scouts and Scouters, I have been advised by some of the medically minded members of our communityabout the dangers of cold water immersion in winter weather. We cannotsuggest or recommend it, even in jest, and, per the Risk ManagementCommittee, we must ban spillway showers, etc.http://www.ussartf.org/cold_water_survival.htm Leaders -- the temperature and wind chills will be dangerous this weekend.Please leave or send people home who show up without appropriate clothing orother gear. Event staff -- please have Friday evening activities in the Dining Hall toencourage participants to spent time there rather than out exposed to theelements."

I will post what the other guys response was. This was from another Scouter in the Council.

"sounds like girl scouts"

Sorry for the confusion that I caused and hope this clears things up a little bit. Wagion, I am forwarding a copy of the e-mails for your reading enjoyment.