Need help with Life - Eagle Process

[Cowboy]

I have a call in to our DE to start the process. I value and appreciate the fact that this individual has donated her time for 25 years to Scouts, and has been the District Advancement Chair for the past 15. I also value the 30 years that Scouter X has put in. It is not my goal to have either one replaced, I just want my son to have a good experience and WANT to stay active. I continued to do more online research today and found our Council "Official Boy Scout Instructions for Eagle Leadership Service Project" Under the heading of Approvals - Sub-heading: Before You Start: • Describe how you will fund your project. Include a sample fund raising flyer (if appropriate). This to me says that Council does not want you to raise funds before approval.
I am hoping that the DE can approach this "for us" so that my son does not get the short end of the stick in all of this.

[FieldSports]

Cowboy,

Appreciate that you do not want to replace someone with that many years. My individual just refused to change. He was "right" (in his mind), even though it was against the stated process. He refused to change, and because of that was replaced. I viewed it not as helping one scout, but as helping all the scouts that would follow. I do not know how many before were frustrated or driven away. I just knew it would not be even one more.

Many times, these board posting will tell you wrong is wrong (easy to preach), (and a good number of people told me not to make waves), but it also requires corrective action on your part (the hard part). The scout law teaches to work within the system and to approach the leadership when a wrong is not being corrected.

[wagionvigil]

Many times, these board posting will tell you wrong is wrong (easy to preach), (and a good number of people told me not to make waves), but it also requires corrective action on your part (the hard part). The scout law teaches to work within the system and to approach the leadership when a wrong is not being corrected.

I always say make waves if asking kindly does not work. WIth most people in scouting that are not following the rules and proceedures the only way is to make waves.

[Cowboy]

I spoke with the CAC. He did some "digging" and determined that this has been the case in our District for many years, long before he came on the scene. Our Council does not have a problem with this "requirement", so it will remain in place for now. I told him that I will back that position (no sense taking on city hall when my son is working so hard). I also plan to make the next two Eagle prospects aware of this "requirement". The CAC cautioned me that my son should be doing everything, and that my continued involvement could cause his project to be declared void. I did explain to him that I was not meddling in the project, but instead: "I am dealing with a procedural issue that concerns all Scouts in the District. It was brought to MY attention because of my sons project". This is not strictly about my son, it is about procedure.
I have also learned that in cases like this, use email. That way you have the response in writing and if someone tries to bite you in the butt, you can whip out the email and show them that this was said and you have it in writing.
BTW: He asked me to take him out for "solicitation" yesterday. Ended up getting about 1/3 of the material donations. Had a couple of businesses give him the run-around, but that too is part of the learning process.

[wagionvigil]

WHo says the Council does not Have A Problem? I would go to the Scout Exec .

[cballman]

The CAC I beleive is a volunter position. I would go over his or her head to make sure that proper procedure is being followed. Our troop has had to change the ways of our Star and Life service projects because of this. We had been doing it our way for many years and a couple of people went to the Council and wanted to know what was going on. We changed to fit with the National standreds and really pissed the people off that called because it made their kids have to work harder and learn less. If your council has a website I would get on there and call a Paid Professional and find out why the rules are different then what is published by the National Scout Office. If they say it is ok then if a child had to raise funds before a project was oked then the project had better d---ed well be ok by everybody. PERIOD. I am one that you can mess with the adults but dont mess with MY KIDS.

Just my take on this process.

[smtroop168]

I spoke with the CAC. He did some "digging" and determined that this has been the case in our District for many years, long before he came on the scene. Our Council does not have a problem with this "requirement", so it will remain in place for now. I told him that I will back that position (no sense taking on city hall when my son is working so hard). I also plan to make the next two Eagle prospects aware of this "requirement". The CAC cautioned me that my son should be doing everything, and that my continued involvement could cause his project to be declared void. I did explain to him that I was not meddling in the project, but instead: "I am dealing with a procedural issue that concerns all Scouts in the District. It was brought to MY attention because of my sons project". This is not strictly about my son, it is about procedure.

I wonder what kind of shovel he used to dig?
The District has different rules than the Council?
The Council doesn't have a problem with adding to the requirements? Talk to the SE.
The Council doesn't make a project void. The EBOR is the determinant on whether or not the ESLSP was completed. Your involvement is as one of his team and he can write that into his project plan, " I will use the assistance of adults to bring me to prospective donors to my project so that I may have all my materials, supplies and tools prior to the start of my project as per the District Advancement Committee's rules."

Our troop has had to change the ways of our Star and Life service projects because of this. We had been doing it our way for many years and a couple of people went to the Council and wanted to know what was going on. We changed to fit with the National standreds and really pissed the people off that called because it made their kids have to work harder and learn less.

More data please. What were you doing or not doing?

[evmori]

Why was any digging done? Was the CAC having a problem finding his/her Advancement Procedures? It sure sounds like it! I would take this to the next level. Arbitrary requirements like this serve no one.

[FieldSports]

Cowboy,

See my prior post. You put the CAC on notice that it involved your son and I know that all the "digging" he did was call the DAC. DAC stated "all is fine, Cowboy is just being an overbearing parent" and "we have been doing it this way since Baden Powell was a boy"

Also, more than likely, the SE has no idea about these "additional" reguirements. However, if you just hit him with "your CAC and DAC are not doing....". The SE calls the CAC, who then professes with all his heart "all is fine, Cowboy is just being an overbearing parent" and and "we have been doing it this way since Baden Powell was a boy". The SE now will label you a "pain in the a**" and you get ignored. You will have accomplished nothing. Then people on this forum will tell you call the Region (at that point just sign your own "dishonorable" discharge papers).

Please, fact finding only!!, till you have spoken to everyone in the chain of command. Get ALL the paperwork, manuals, etc. Remember, the SE and your council are bound to follow the National Procedures. Put them in their face, AFTER you have lined up all your ducks. Get the documents, then calmly approach your SE with your concerns about procedure for ALL SCOUTS and ask his counsel on how to deal with the situation. "I need your counsel on how to deal with DAC and CAC, since you now agree that procedures are not being followed?" "If they continue with their own "rules" can I contact you again and get more advice?" You are a leader for a unit with a concern for ALL scouts. They do not get to alter the program

Stepping up to Soap Box:

Our Council does not have a problem with this "requirement", so it will remain in place for now.

Really?? This part of the "digging" from DAC to CAC. Get real this was CYA and good old boy network. Follow up question is "Who at Council is OK'ing this?"

I told him that I will back that position (no sense taking on city hall when my son is working so hard).

Please, please only back the "correct" procedures. See my prior post this is the hard part. Wrong is wrong. You are fixing this for all the scouts AFTER your son.

The CAC cautioned me that my son should be doing everything, and that my continued involvement could cause his project to be declared void.

This is the one I love the most. He just put the vailed threat that if you continue to make waves, we will delay or deny your sons Eagle.

Please, please send me this spineless weasel's name and number, and your SE name and number. I volunteer to personally chew this guy a new one. He just messed with a youth's advancement. 30+ years, Silver Whatever, do not care!! Wrong is Wrong.

Steps Down from Soap Box

[evmori]

Please, please send me this spineless weasel's name and number, and your SE name and number. I volunteer to personally chew this guy a new one. He just messed with a youth's advancement. 30+ years, Silver Whatever, do not care!! Wrong is Wrong.

Me too! Me too! I's like a piece of these sanctimonious bozos!

[smtroop168]

Cowboy...Here's some facts from your council web site:

How to Start
You have earned the Life Scout rank and are ready to begin your Eagle Scout leadership service project. These instructions and those in the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook (Chippewa Valley Council Version) will help you plan your project, record your progress and complete the final report.

THE CVC VERSION? HERE IS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM [b]

Carrying out the Project
 Record any fund-raising activities you completed for your project’s funding

THIS IS UNDER CARRYING OUT NOT DISTRICT APPROVAL

• Describe how you will fund your project. Include a sample fund raising flyer (if appropriate).

THIS IN IN THE PLANNING. IT SAYS DESCRIBE NOT PRODUCE THE CASH

[smtroop168]

So where are we on this one?

[Cowboy]

So many waves such a little lake! Boy did this make a mess. I finally dropped it and have him working on the fund raising. Council Advancement Chair was polite and "understanding" but still backed the District AC. Both of them have stated (one in writing) that the project will be approved after he has gotten the funds/donations. She (District AC) finally caught up with me last week and after a full morning of dirty looks, decided to talk to me. She said that it is just a matter of when he does the work, not that there will be additional work to be done. That is true as far as it goes, but based on that I wonder why they insist a boy be Life before he does his project. It shouldn't matter when he does the work as long as he does it right? Further: The Council AC questioned why the big rush for him to make Eagle since he is only 14.5 yrs old. I tried to wexplain that it isn't about rushing. It is about trying to organize his time. With all of his other activities, he does not want to just drag his heels. My biggest complaint about the age issue is this: If the Scout (any boy, not just mine) has successfully completed all of his MB's and earned Life, what does it matter if he is 14 or 15 or 16? He has done the work, let him be recognised for it! I have known 18 yr olds that could never complete the requirements if given an extra 5 years. As far as earning his current "status": His mother was his MBC on one ERMB, along with about 20 other boys. I have been his MBC of two of his ERMB's and those were done with groups also, so there is no doubt that he earned them plus some. I have only counseled 3 of his other MB's (one solo, the rest in groups) and he currently has all ER plus another 14.

Rant over.

[wagionvigil]

They are in violation of stated BSA policy and should be held accountable, for lack of better term.

[Bill Pitcher]

Regardless of what they say, Cowboy, they are both still wrong. They are in direct violation of BSA policy.

[smtroop168]

And in violation of the guidance on their own web site. Does your SE have a clue?

That is true as far as it goes, but based on that I wonder why they insist a boy be Life before he does his project. It shouldn't matter when he does the work as long as he does it right?

Scouts cannot start their Eagle projects before they make Life because the Leadership project is a culmination of the scouting leadership skills and service projects they learn on along the trail.

The Council AC questioned why the big rush for him to make Eagle since he is only 14.5 yrs old.

Another violation of BSA policy...restricting scouts advancement progress. Tell them to read the BSA publication 33088 Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures pg 3 "Each youth progresses at his or her own rate" and also on the same page "No council, district, unit otr individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements". It's also repeated on pg 23.

[joat]

... I wonder why they insist a boy be Life before he does his project. It shouldn't matter when he does the work as long as he does it right?

Ahh. All deepens on your point of view. I suppose if it's OK to make up a rule allowing a 1st Class or Star Scout work on an Eagle project, it ought to be OK to make up fundraising rules too.

The boy's Handbook lists Eagle requirement #5, "While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project ..."

[Cowboy]

Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to completely drop this issue. I have learned that a lot of BSA (sadly, very sadly) is politics. Having spent many years involved in politics my wife and I have learned the games that must be played. One of those lessons is to know when to set the ball down and wait in the weeds. That is what we are doing. Right now our son is working hard to complete his Eagle project, and pursuing this matter would make things more difficult for him. Once he has completed his ERBoR, we will then pick this back up and try to get things straightened out. We have been very careful and supportive of him during the process and will continue to be so.

[smtroop168]

Don't get me wrong, I do not intend to completely drop this issue. I have learned that a lot of BSA (sadly, very sadly) is politics. Having spent many years involved in politics my wife and I have learned the games that must be played. One of those lessons is to know when to set the ball down and wait in the weeds. That is what we are doing. Right now our son is working hard to complete his Eagle project, and pursuing this matter would make things more difficult for him. Once he has completed his ERBoR, we will then pick this back up and try to get things straightened out. We have been very careful and supportive of him during the process and will continue to be so.

Understand the allegiance to your son but don't forget (I know you won't), the other scouts that are getting messed with.

[Trigirl]

I'm with you on this one Cowboy. Waiting in the weeds might be the best thing for now. Sometimes it is a very good lesson for the boys to learn about the politics at this age. If he is making his way through the muddle - more power to him! What great lessons he is learning that will last him a lifetime.

I hope after all is said and done, you can make some lasting changes that will be better for the boys coming down the road.