Abstentions at BORs

[Scouting179]

I may be answering my own question here, but I'd like to gather thoughts on...

BOR decisions (for all ranks) must be unanimous. What if someone abstains? Does that mean the BOR is not unanimous or is it as if the BOR member hadn't even been there so that if everyone else voted to advance the candidate, he gets the rank?


FYI, here's a dictionary definition of unanimous:
indicating unanimity; having the
agreement and consent of all; agreed upon without the
opposition or contradiction of any;

[wagionvigil]

I always thought majority ruled.

[Scouting179]

Nope, it is not a majority, it's unanimous. FYI, this is a common misconception. Here is a direct quote from the Advancement Manual (in a section applying to all ranks):

"The decision of the board is arrived at through discussion and must be unanimous."

[wagionvigil]

OK I can go with that. Now lets look at it this way. If one abstains it can be for various reasons. At a local School board meeting they were hiring a teacher, their rules also call for a unamious vote for any hiring. One board member abastained as the person being considered was related. Everyone else voted yes and the person was hired. SO I guess an abstension is neither a vote or a non vote and does not count in the total

[RWSmith]

Abstention is not an option on an ES BOR. All board memebers must cast vote. And, I just figured, any other rank BOR would be the same way.

[Scouting179]

Abstention is not an option on an ES BOR. All board memebers must cast vote. And, I just figured, any other rank BOR would be the same way.

I just looked for this in the Eagle section of the advancement manual and see nowhere where it actually says anything like "everyone must cast a vote"; though I agreed this could be argued from the "unanimous" clause.

[commish3]

Why would anyone who was unwilling to render a decision agree to sit on the board for that Scout?

The advancement policy is that the decision be unanimous, I do not see how an abstention can make it unanimous.

[Scouting179]

While I haven't yet been on a BOR where this occurred, I'd suspect it at least came close to happening somewhere sometime.

Here's a potential scenario where I see this as a possibility:

You have a kid going up for Eagle. He had his SM conf days before he turned 18, so you get 90 days after that birthday for him to pass his BOR. He drags his feet do his part of the paperwork, getting references in, etc. So, you end up having the BOR 2 weeks before the 90 days is up. He is at best a borderline candidate and the son of an adult registered with the troop who is also an Eagle. So, at least one person on the BOR is not comfortable with the candidate making Eagle, yet the discussion at the BOR reveals everyone else thinks he is or wants to pass him because "it's his last shot as his time is up to make Eagle" and/or "if we don't pass him, there'll be a big stink about it". So, the BOR member who is not comfortable with it, doesn't want to vote no and be the "bad guy", so the question is; Can he abstain, thereby letting the kid pass yet not having agreed to it and his name/signature not being on the paperwork?


...More support for my argument people who know the candidate well shouldn't sit on the BOR. In my council the BOR has only one district rep (who may or may not know the candidate) and the rest come from within the troop. In some troops the candidate even gets to request a couple people be on the BOR.

[commish3]

So if this person is unable to stand up for his convictions what the heck is he doing on a board of review? If her or she is unable to make a decision or committment then release them from the board but do not give them an opportunity to complain afterwards that they didn't want the the scout to advance and the others allowed it. (by the way I would never invite them to sit on a BOR ever again). Either everyone agrees, or the scout does not advance at that time, those are the rules.

This is not the place to discover you are afraid to speak your mind. It seems unfair to ask the boy to come and share his thoughts and convictions to an adult who is unwilling to share his.

[don]

Wow, with all of the Type A personalties I see in the BSA, I find it hard to believe that someone would abstain!
sorry bad joke.

I have some questions about the the scenario put forth by Scouting179.

What paperwork would a BOR be waiting for from a Scout? It is my understanding that references letters should be obtained by the BOR, and the scout should have nothing to do with obtaining them, is this true?
What other paperwork would a scout have to have for a BOR, his project should be done, along with the paperwork, what else is required for the Eagle BOR?

[Scouting179]

This is not the place to discover you are afraid to speak your mind. It seems unfair to ask the boy to come and share his thoughts and convictions to an adult who is unwilling to share his.

Good point. This is what I was looking for, an exchange of ideas on this thread.

[Scouting179]

I have some questions about the the scenario put forth by Scouting179.

What paperwork would a BOR be waiting for from a Scout? It is my understanding that references letters should be obtained by the BOR, and the scout should have nothing to do with obtaining them, is this true?
What other paperwork would a scout have to have for a BOR, his project should be done, along with the paperwork, what else is required for the Eagle BOR?

The Eagle Candidate never sees his completed references, they go to the BOR chairman, but the Candidate selects to whom he wants to give them and provides them with the form and a stamped envelope addressed to the BOR chair (that's how we do it in my district anyway). Also, the Candidate has to list 5 references on his application (I suggest he ask for more than the minimum 5 in case one doesn't come back to the Chairman), provide info for the application, and also sign it before the SM and Committee Chair sign it. This all must occur before the BOR convenes. FYI, much of the info on the app can be gleaned from an program like Troopmaster, but not all of it, especially if the Scout has been moving a lot or changed troops. You are right, the project and its writeup should be completely done before the SM Conference. You may be amazed to see how long some candidates can drag this stuff out, especially if he has a procrastinating personality and/or has to be pushed by someone to get things done on time.

[Scouting179]

Okay, let me point out again that I have NOT seen this scenario happen (not yet anyway), I'm merely looking for an exchange of ideas. Being an advancement chairman, I see lots of things and hear about all sorts of others that one may not predict, especially if they are not involved in the BOR side of the program. This all gets my creative side going.

I'm enjoyng this thread quite a bit. Thanks everyone.

[commish3]

Hi Scouting 179

I was going to private e-mail this to you but could not find a link. I am pretty positive that if you check the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual it backs up what Don said that the Troop committee is specifically charged with sending and collecting the personal references for the candidate. The scout is charged to personally contact the references ahead of time and ask for their participation in receiving and returning the letters from the committee.
Also I believe the required number of references is 6 if the scout is employed and 5 if unemployed.

hope this helps

[don]

They way I understood the reference names where to be supplied by the scout. If the BOR wanted reference letters, it would be up the BOR to ask the person to write the letters for the scout. I was told that the scout should have nothing to do with the references letters. Is this not true?

I have wrote a reference letter for a scout, but I do not understand the procedure on how they should be obtained. I was under the understanding that the BOR should ask the person to write the letter, and the scout was never involved in the process at all?

Are reference letters mandatory for a scout to become an Eagle?

Opps I was typing when commish posted.

[Scouting179]

Don and Commish:

I just reread the Adv Manual. It says nothing about reference letters that I saw (if you find it, let me know the specific paragraph, please). So, I imagine this varies from Council to Council, just as the way BORs are formed vary. BSA has very few guidelines on the compostion of Eagle BORs (3-6 people, no SMs or ASMs, no parents, a minimum of one district rep). So, I can only tell you how they are done in my council. In some councils, no one on the Eagle BOR is allowed to personally know the Candidate. Here, we have one rep, two that the candidate requests, and usually two from the troop.

There are 6 slots for references on the Eagle app. One is for parents, which doesn't count as the minimum of 5 which must be received by the BOR. One is for employer (if he has a job). One is a religious reference (which can be a parent as in many homes and religions it is parents who do the spiritual teaching). One is educational. The other two slots can be anyone else he chooses to list.

In our council, the Scout hands the BLANK form to the selected people, which are invariably approved by the BOR chairman. The Scout NEVER sees the completed form (if he does, it's voided). The person mails the form in a stamped and addressed envelope to the BOR Chairman or hands it to him in person. 5 must be received before the BOR is convened (not counting the parental one).

Reference letters are mandatory to be an Eagle (at least in our council). You need 5 to be recieved by the BOR; these 5 do not necessarily have to be the same ones listed on the app as the BOR nor Candidate can control who actually turns one in.

[commish3]

I just reread the Adv Manual. It says nothing about reference letters that I saw (if you find it, let me know the specific paragraph, please

Happy to help Souting 179, page 31 bullets 5 and 7.

There is nothing that states that fewer than the required references are allowed by the requirement. The only option I am aware of that the requirement offers is if the scout does not have an employer, otherwise it would appear he is to offer all the listed references.

While I agree that not all councils do it the same, they are supposed to. The BSA advancement polices do not allow anyone person or group, including councils, to alter advancement requirements. The only exception being the National Executive Board.

Hope this helps,

[Scouting179]

I just reread the Adv Manual. It says nothing about reference letters that I saw (if you find it, let me know the specific paragraph, please

Happy to help Souting 179, page 31 bullets 5 and 7.

There is nothing that states that fewer than the required references are allowed by the requirement. The only option I am aware of that the requirement offers is if the scout does not have an employer, otherwise it would appear he is to offer all the listed references.

While I agree that not all councils do it the same, they are supposed to. The BSA advancement polices do not allow anyone person or group, including councils, to alter advancement requirements. The only exception being the National Executive Board.

Hope this helps,

Your book is not the same as mine. My page 39 talks about Lifesaving Awards. The title is "Advancement Committee Policy and Procedures", printed 1999. Perhaps I need a newer book, huh?

If one of the listed refs doesn't turn his/hers in, why couldn't a different eligible ref be accepted?

I think the reason not all councils do BORs (and certain other things) the same is simply that the written guidance, on BOR composition at least, is so nebulous.

[commish3]

When you pick up the current edition check page 30 in the highlighted area for the make-up of the Board.

Hope this helps.

[RWSmith]

I just looked for this in the Eagle section of the advancement manual and see nowhere where it actually says anything like "everyone must cast a vote"....

Yes sir, Scouting179, you're absolutely correct. The "Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures" manual (#33088D) only says the decision of the board must be unanimous. But, whenever the question of advancement is at hand, I always apply the rule of “No more, no less.” There’s no mention of, and therefore no allowance for, “majority rule” or “abstention.” A BOR is not a Committee Meeting; it’s an Award Approval/Disapproval Panel where anything other than a yes, is a no.

BTW, here's a PDF file that covers so many bases, it's a truly a grand slam... I encourage all you parents out there to check it out... http://www.circle10.org/includes/downloads/eagle_policy.pdf. It answers so many questions.