Questions about "ACTIVITIES" as used for rank adva

[Scouting179]

Scouting 179 - Why would you give credit for a campout AND whatever the activity on the campout is? Isn't that like a student wanting credit for going to school AND going to classes when at school? Seems to me that the campout and whatever takes place on that campout should be 1 activity?

Because our SM says to. Also consider that if you go on a campout and hike, do you not count the hike towards an advancement hiking requirement because it's in in conjunction with the campout? What if only some kids go on the hike and the others go on a service project? Besides, if you keep a troop database, you'd need to make a camping night and miles hiked entry.

I can see both sides of the argument here and I (being the database, web site keeper and adv chair for the troop), just follow the SM's guidelines because in my opinion this subject is an SM call.

[commish3]

Let's revisit Hamish's original question because I believe he has misunderstood the requirement and that is why there is so much disagrrement among the answers.

Hamish asks

If there is a campout (2 nights) and the troop goes to a museum during this outing, is it one or two activities?

That suggests that requirement is to attend activities and campouts as if they are separate items.

What the Handbook actually says is

Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight.

It is not 5 activities and two campouts. It is five activitries. Two of which INCLUDE camping overnight.

So a troop or patrol activity where they also sleep overnight is counted as one of the five required.

As far as the Merit Badge Day he mentions. NO, if they are not participating as a troop (a gathering of patrols) or as a patrol, then it would not meet the criteria of the requirement.

If the troop or patrol did the good turn on an evening other than the regular troop meeting then yes it would count.

[Rick Tyler]

Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight.

It is not 5 activities and two campouts. It is five activitries. Two of which INCLUDE camping overnight.

I've only heard of one possible exception to the concept of one "scheduled thing" equaling one "activity." This came up on a Scout leader's discussion board a while back. They attended a summer camp where some older scouts went on an optional backpacking trip during the camp week. The Scoutmaster was arguing that the week of camp was a different outing than the 2-night (IIRC) backpacking trip. I could go either way on this myself, as I found that I wasn't really disagreeing with the Scoutmaster.

Other "gray areas" are easier, for me. For example, this summer we substituted some outddoor time for troop meetings. One week we bicycled and another we played "wide games" in a park. Neither counted as a troop activity because it was also our regular troop meeting. The Scoutmaster ruled (IMO, correctly) that if it doesn't require a tour permit, it's not a troop activity, and that these were just troop meetings outdoors.

In my experience, the biggest pressure to count questionable things as "activities" comes from boys trying to make First Class in six months, and boys that hardly ever go on outings. An active scout in an active troop should have no trouble doing 10 activites in a year. I believe our troop, which is a moderately active troop of 40 boys, has nearly 30 events scheduled for next year that would count as an activity for advancement. This doesn't count patrol outings, by the way.

[don]

As a ASM

1. ONE

2. YES

3. NO
I would not sign off someone working on Merit Badges as a Activity for 2nd or 1st Class.

[ASM-142]

I agree with Don

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I can see the 3rd as going either way. But not Scouting 179's reference to his SM saying a hike on a campout does not count towards the hiking requirement? Aren't some activities on campouts suppose to be geared towards boys earning credit? We have a campout where we hike a part of the Finger Lakes trail in NY all day and this is done for fun but also to earn credit for some. Some use it towards their Hiking badge, some for rank advancement. Some don't need it at all but go because it's what the troop is doing on that months campout.

[commish3]

I would have no problem giving a scout credit for going to a merit badge day, as a patrol or troop, credit for an activity only because...it is one. It meets the criteria of the requirement and since it is not within anyone's authority in the unit to add to a requirement then I would think you would have to accept it.

I would not count just one or two people going however since the requirement specifices participation as a troop or patrol.

So what if they are working on advancement as the activity? Any well planned scout activity should have opportunity for advancemnt built in in some way, whether learning, practicing, or applying skills for advancement.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

But what if as is in this case, the oportunity was open to the entire troop and only 2 scouts choose to go, why wouldn't they get the credit? It's not their fault they were the only ones wanting to go? If the entire troop had gone you would then allow them the credit? So their being punished by losing credit especially when it's a council wide activity and their out meeting new people?

[Scouting179]

I can see the 3rd as going either way. But not Scouting 179's reference to his SM saying a hike on a campout does not count towards the hiking requirement? Aren't some activities on campouts suppose to be geared towards boys earning credit? We have a campout where we hike a part of the Finger Lakes trail in NY all day and this is done for fun but also to earn credit for some. Some use it towards their Hiking badge, some for rank advancement. Some don't need it at all but go because it's what the troop is doing on that months campout.

I did NOT say don't count the hike. Note that I put a ? at the end, making it a rhetorical question, not a statement of my opinion. However, I do see where one could be confused by it.

I also agree that for a active Scout, this rarely becomes a concern unless he's moving through ranks fast, which I think is fine, but that topic should be in a whole other thread.

[commish3]

But what if as is in this case, the oportunity was open to the entire troop and only 2 scouts choose to go, why wouldn't they get the credit? It's not their fault they were the only ones wanting to go? If the entire troop had gone you would then allow them the credit? So their being punished by losing credit especially when it's a council wide activity and their out meeting new people?

If my family is invited to a party but I am the only one that goes is it a family activity? The Handbook says that to count toward the requirement the scout must participate as part of a troop or patrol activity, it does not say that individual participation at a council or district event is acceptable. You cannot add to or subtract from the stated requirement, and it seems specific in what it is asking for.

It is not a matter of penalizing anyone, it simply does not seem to meet the criteria stated in the requirement.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Part of a troop? If only two people go and I would sure assume they have tdl, then it is part of the troop? What if you only have 10 scouts in your troop and only 2 or 3 go on a campout, does that not count?

Scouting179 - I see where I mistook your statement, sorry about that. I now see that your SM did not say this but that you were asking the question. My bad, comment to it is still the same though, lol.

[commish3]

Part of a troop? If only two people go and I would sure assume they have tdl, then it is part of the troop? What if you only have 10 scouts in your troop and only 2 or 3 go on a campout, does that not count?

A patrol is a group of boys under the leadership of a leader they elected. They function as a unit in all activities. A troop is a gathering of patrols not just a few boys from wearing the same troop numerals.

If three ball players each from a different teams show up at a dinner is it a game? Are they a team? Are they a league? Are they just three players who are all in the same sport?

The things that scouting teaches a boy as part of an autonomous patrol, or as a community member within a troop require that organizational structure. Otherwise why have a patrol method, why not just have troops?

Why doesn't the requirement simply have the scout do 5 activities as a Boy Scout? Why specifiy troop/patrol activities?

You have to ask yourself "what is the purpose for the requirement?".
I believe based on the contents of Boy Scout Handbook and on the definitions of troop and patrol, that the purpose is to establish with the scout, during that first formative year in the program, the importance of the patrol as a team, and the troop as a community.

3 random scouts are not a patrol. No group of patrols=no troop. In order for the requirement to achieve its purpose the unit of the patrol must be involved or multiple patrols cooperating together as a troop. This requirement is trying to establish "team" and "citizenship" within the scout.

That is why the requirement specifies those groups and does not just say to the scout "do 5 scouting activities".

Hope this helps

[RWSmith]

Several differing points of view, reasons; several varying positions on interpreting just what consists of a "Troop or Patrol activity." It has made for good debate. However, after reading all these interesting posts, I'd like to explain my view point... Any opportunity (aside from regular meetings) that is open to all members of the Troop or Patrol is an “activity.” I realize this is just my opinion but, here are some examples:

You attend an ES LSP work day or an ES COH for a member of your Troop? Yes. For your friend, who’s in another Troop? No. (Not unless your entire Troop/Patrol was invited.)

You attend church, in uniform, with your Troop (at your CO's church) on Scout Sunday? Yes. Your family attends a different church (than where your Troop meets); but, you still wear your uniform on Scout Sunday? No.

Any trip or outing (open to your entire Troop or Patrol) where your Troop (or Patrol) files a Tour Permit? Yes. A Troop camping trip? Yes. A Patrol hike? Yes. As a participant at the NSJ? No. (It’s not open to the entire Unit.)

Any trip or outing (open to your entire Troop or Patrol) where your Troop (or Patrol) is not required to file a Tour Permit? Yes. Examples:

12 out of 30 guys in your Troop are currently working on the Communications MB. Your MBC sets up a trip to City Hall and secures two ULs to provide the TDL. No. This is not a Troop or Patrol activity.

However, if your MBC offers the SM to open the trip up to all members of the Troop, or if a PL asks if his Patrol can go? Then, yes, it becomes a Troop/Patrol activity.

Here’s some more:

Your Patrol meets during lunch at school, with the principal's permission, to set out chairs for a PTA meeting scheduled for that evening. Yes.

At a recent regular meeting, your SM offers four free tickets to any Scouts who want to go to the upcoming NASCAR race. TDL and transportation will be provided for those kids who want to go, but their parents can’t. Your parents can and do take you and your kid sisters, and you wear your uniform so you can get in free. (Even though you didn’t “go” with the Troop, since the tickets were all blocked together, you and your family ends up sitting with the others in your Troop that also went.) Yes. That’s right, I consider this to be a yes.

What about a trip within a trip? I say no. (And we do lots of them.) For example, my son’s Troop goes up to Pisgah Nat. Forest for the weekend. That’s one. While on this camping trip… Patrol “A” plans a five mile hike. No. The Troop visits the Cradle of Forestry. Again, no. Patrol “B” plans an 8.5 mile hike to the Fish Hatchery, and back. Another no. No matter what you do while on a trip, it’s still just one trip. ('Course now, someday, I might run into an exception to this; but I haven't seen it, yet.)

The purpose of the activity has nothing to do with it; what's important is the opportunity for the Scout to plan and do things with others members of his Troop/Patrol. The gathering of Patrols (or a Troop of Patrols) does not make an activity, it's the opportunity to do so, separate and apart from regular meetings, that makes it an activity. So, even if only two Scouts show up, it was still planned as a Troop/Patrol activity; and if it's carried out, it counts as an activity.

[t305spl]

Well said commish3 and RWSmith.

[commish3]

I think R W Smith raises a good point. There seems to be a variety of definitions being used, and that could be causing the variety in opinion.

Perhaps more uniform definitions would help. Please see pages 17 and 25 of the Boy Scout Handbook. Using those definitions and seeing how the BSA and the handbook view 'troop' and 'patrol' does that alter or cement anyone's view of the requirement?

[don]

Reviewing the handbook, still did not change my mind. I still would not sign off working on a merit bagde as a activity for rank advancment.

[commish3]

Don,
If a Patrol went on a 15 mile hike one saturday, would you count that?

What if some of them were using that hike toward their hiking merit badge. Would it then not count as a patrol activity?

The requirement makes no exception as to what the activity is so long as it is done as a patrol or troop outside of the regular meeting time. We are not allowed to add to or subtract from the requirement.

[don]

commish3

Yes I would count a patrol hike toward a rank advancement. If while on the hike some of the scouts worked on merit badges, great.

The original question was about a merit badge marathon, if the complete troop showed up to work on a merit badge, at this marathon, I would not count it toward rank advancement. They are working on a merit badges, not doing a troop function.

[cballman]

Ok but what i was thinking was that for the RANK req. you could not use the same campout and hike for two different activitys. but yes you could use the campout for one of the First class req. number three. but not the hike together for this req. it could IMHO be used for say Second class req. 1b. doing this i believe to be ok but not two different activitys for the first class req. does this sound better and clarify my opinion on this and what do yall think?
maybe I could be a better leader if I just sit back and listen to others without sticking my foot in my mouth to much

[RWSmith]

The original question was about a merit badge marathon, if the complete troop showed up to work on a merit badge, at this marathon, I would not count it toward rank advancement. They are working on a merit badges, not doing a troop function.

I don't get it, Don. WADR, I disagree. Let me try to change you mind... I mean, so what if the group is afforded the opportunity to work on one or more MBs once they reach their destination? (As I indicated in an earlier post, what they do once they get there is irrelevant.)

Once a year, my son's Troop's PLC plans a visit to the local fire station, in lieu of a regular meeting. We all meet at the Scout Hut a half hour early and the entire Troop goes over to the fire station to learn about fire safety, including those who have the Fire Safety MB (which, for them, makes for a good refresher) and those who don't care to earn it. The PLC and the firemen have already planned to cover as many requirements as possible during this "activity" (or meeting). In fact, the last time the Troop went two weeks in a row to cover even more requirements... and to have time for some extra fun, too. (And, BTW, if I'm not mistaken, in this case, the SM counted the two trips as one activity... and I'm inclined to agree because it was just one activity, not two separate activities.)

Would going to summer camp for a week (with the Troop) also not count as an activity, since the purpose of this trip would to earn MBs?

IMO, the Troop or Patrol has the right to plan and carry out whatever group activities they wish (as long as it doesn’t violate the G2SS), even if the primary (or sole) purpose is to (afford those who wish to do so) work on MB requirements.

If I haven't swayed your opinion, please tell me what makes a Troop being invited to participate in a MB marathon (We don't have those here--for fear of even being perceived as a MB mill.) different than other acceptable activities? Why am I asking? Because, although I’m disagreeing, I'm not saying you are wrong either. Not at all. In fact, I'm really trying to understand why you decided to draw the line on a MB marathon because I am open to suggestions that might change my mind about where I draw that line.