Questions about "ACTIVITIES" as used for rank adva

[RWSmith]

....does this sound better and clarify my opinion on this and what do yall think?

I think so. Now you got me .

It's pretty obvious that, yes, you can do Tenderfoot Req. 2: "Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop campout. Sleep in a tent you have helped pitch." and 2nd Class Req. 1b: "Using a compass and map together, take a five-mile hike (or 10 miles by bike) approved by your adult leader and your parent or guardian." on the same camping trip.

But, IMO, the trip only counts for one Troop or Patrol activity... 2nd Class Req. 2a: "Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight." or 1st Class Req. 3: "Since joining, have participated in 10 separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), three of which included camping overnight."

[optimist]

If the troop or a patrol decides to do something as a troop or a patrol outside of a normal meeting, it is an activity. This would include a MB marathon provided it was planned and approved as a troop/patrol activity.

On the other hand, if the MB marathon was discussed but turned down as a troop/patrol activity or if it was presented as something the Scouts might wish to do on their own, then the only benefit for those attending the event would be earning merit badges.

This standard would apply to all activities outside normal meetings.

[don]

Before I reply, I need to know what WADR stands for.

But to understand my thought process. I think Merit Badge Mills, Days, Marathon are a way to shortcut the BSA program. And the original intent for merit badges. And the patrol did not set this up, it was the SM.

[RWSmith]

Before I reply, I need to know what WADR stands for.

Sorry, WADR... "With all due respect"

But to understand my thought process. I think Merit Badge Mills, Days, Marathon are a way to shortcut the BSA program. And the original intent for merit badges. And the patrol did not set this up, it was the SM.

I had a feeling it’d be something like that; and, frankly, I do understand (as I eluded to, in my last post). But, we should not penalize a couple of kids for attending a District- or Council-sanctioned, Troop-approved activity in protest of MB mills. And the fact that the SM set it up, rather than the Troop (or a Patrol) itself, does not change the fact that it was a Troop activity. BTW, who attends District Roundtable meetings? The ULs? Or PLC? It’s usually the ULs that get the “news” of officially sponsored or sanctioned events. And, it is the ULs who, in turn, offer it to the Scouts.

[don]

RWSmith
Okay you got me thinking!? I had to go look up the requirements, to make sure I was not changing the requirements.

Since joining, have participated in five separate troop/patrol activities (other than troop/patrol meetings), two of which included camping overnight.

If the troop decides to go to a fire house for a troop meeting, it is still a meeting. The requirement says an activity outside of a meeting, not outside of a normal meeting. So I would not include that for a rank advancement.

There is a good write up within the SM handbook and the BS handbook, about MBs. And the purpose of MBs. And it does not include using MBs for advancement. I really do not think MBs should be used for rank 2nd or 1st advancements. But that is my opinion.
Bottom line if someone could show me where it says that Merit Badges can be used for 2nd class advancement I would change my mind.

Would going to summer camp for a week (with the Troop) also not count as an activity, since the purpose of this trip would to earn MBs?
Summer camp should not be a week of MBS, IMO.

It sounds like you are saying if 3 scouts from a patrol works on a merit badge together, you would count it.
No where does the requirement for the advancement say approved activity.

I do not feel they are being penalized for not allowing double dipping.

WOW there is alot going on in the thread.

[Rick Tyler]

There is a good write up within the SM handbook and the BS handbook, about MBs. And the purpose of MBs. And it does not include using MBs for advancement.

I agree that simply working on a MB is not a troop activity, nor is a district or council MB fair or workshop. Even if it is announced at a troop meeting, it doesn't -- for me -- pass any reasonable measure of a "troop activity."

Now that I've said that, I would make an exception for a troop MB campout, or a district MB fair that includes a night of camping. The difference, to me, is that it then becomes a troop campout that includes working on MBs as the primary activity (rather than a hike or first aid clinic or canoe trip, etc.) Why would I make this distinction? Dunno. Just makes sense to me. It's that whole "what's reasonable" thing again.

[RWSmith]

If the troop decides to go to a fire house for a troop meeting, it is still a meeting. The requirement says an activity outside of a meeting, not outside of a normal meeting. So I would not include that for a rank advancement.

Good point. But, wait.... They didn't go to the fire station and then conduct a regular meeting there; it was a Troop activity (or special meeting) in lieu of a regular meeting. This Troop also goes bowling once or twice a year in lieu of a regular meeting. But, I personally would not consider that a Troop activity. OTOH, [Aaarrgghh!] if they went to see a pro ball game or a NASCAR race, in uniform, e.g., the Council got "group" tickets, I'd consider that a 'big deal' outing. Okay, somebody stop this thing and LET ME OFF!!!... Hey! Why are the walls are spinning? Uh, <Thud!>

It sounds like you are saying if 3 scouts from a patrol works on a merit badge together, you would count it.

Oh, no. No way. That's not a Troop or Patrol activity. That's just three kids working on a MB.

Bottom line if someone could show me where it says that Merit Badges can be used for 2nd class advancement I would change my mind. .... [And,] Summer camp should not be a week of MBS, IMO.

Huh? I mean, yeah, I agree, Sumer Camp can be, but shouldn't be, a MB mill. Even so, the first priority of a BSA Summer Camp program is to provide Scouts the opportunity to earn various of MBs, particularly those which are inconvenient to earn back home.

So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Which is okay. I mean, at least I can see your point. And I commend to for sticking to your guns, while firing like a gentleman. <Heh,heh.> I think I may have muddled it up because my short answer is that I agree with Optimist, who earlier said it best. (Ah, brevity and clarity, the good Lord granted me not.)

Anyhow, one last thing... Here's my Ace card; I would ask you to consider this: Every MB is purposefully written in such a fashion that any and every Scout may attempt it, regardless of his age, rank or maturity. The fact that it seems inplausable for an 11-year old to be capable of legitimately earning certain MBs is not the point. Further, the fact that the SM must sign a Blue card for a Scout prior to his beginning the MB, does NOT give said SM the right to refuse to do so. The point is, that the entire MB system is designed so that any Scout may attempt any MB he so chooses... any MB... regardless of his age, rank or maturity... from day one, right up until his 18th birthday. BTW, my son earned 17 MBs by the time he made 1st Class. He loves it. He earned 26 by the time he made Star. That's as many at age 13 as I had when I turned 18. (And I never push him. Really.)

Best arguement I've had in a long time, Don. Tanks, Bro'dah.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I have to agree with RWSMITH with a few exceptions to his thread. If an opportunity is offered to scouts in a troop and only two choose to go, but the event is through the district, outside of a normal meeting then they should be given credit for it as an activity. After all, they're still out there in the scout world, participating in scout stuff, meeting new people, which for some youth is not an easy task. Therefore I would give them credit. I would not hold it against them that the rest of the patrol doesn't want to go or can not go.
With that being said, I also agree that as a rule, i don't like the idea of MB Fairs. It does to me seem like a shortcut and a way for the lazier scouts to pick up a quick badge. However, I would disagree that the main purpose of summer camp is to earn badges. Yes, badges are a given part of attending camp but there's so much more to be gained by the experience that I don't think it's the root of why boys go. I've attended full weeks of camp several times and some of the boys don't even need to go but have said they would never miss camp. The growth within the boy is so obvious when they return. Ok, I've gotten way of track here so I'll get off my horse now and say = cya

[Hamish17]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I have read every one and they are very much appreiciated. If I have understood most everything, I think the summary would be:

1. If there is a campout (2 nights) and the troop goes to a museum during this outing, is it one or two activities? EQUALS 1 ACTIVITY

2. If the troops sponsoring organization (a church) is cleaned as a service project is that an activity? YES, EQUALS 1 ACTIVITY

3. If the Scoutmaster hands out information on a merit badge marathon and only two of fifteen scouts sign up and go along with adult leaders, is that and activity? CAN GO EITHER WAY, BUT IF PROMOTED AS A TROOP OR PATROL OUTING BY THE SM, PROBABLY AN ACTIVITY EVEN THOUGH ONLY TWO SCOUTS CHOSE TO GO

ADDITIONALLY - If there is a campout and the troop or a patrol goes on a 10 mile hike - EQUALS 2 ACTIVIES

Again, Thanks to all!

[Rick Tyler]

ADDITIONALLY - If there is a campout and the troop or a patrol goes on a 10 mile hike - EQUALS 2 ACTIVIES

Umm, no, not, as far as I'm concerned. It might have been me that muddied these waters earlier. At summer camp a few years ago, our older boys skipped two days and two nights at camp to go on a high-adventure trip nearby. They would have gotten credit for summer camp as an activity, and the backpacking trip as an activity.

A day hike within the context of a troop campout is just a thing that happened -- it is not an "activity."

Sorry if it was me that confused this.

[Hamish17]

One other thing I didn't think about mentioning until I after I made my last post. This is in the form of a testimony about Scouting.

As I mentioned in my original post, my son is relatively new to Scouting (July 04). When we went over and discussed items in the requirement for Tenderfoot, specifically, 12a “Demonstrate the Heimlich maneuver and tell when it is used.” I must have learned something also.

We were having lunch today and my son made a strange sound that caught my attention. I looked over and he had a look of panic on his face and I asked him, “can you breathe”. He shook his head indicating - no. I automatically went around the table and preformed the Heimlich, admittedly not very well at first but on the third attempt a large ball of cheese (from Pizza) was forced out. Scouting made a difference.

Thanks to all.

[evmori]

ADDITIONALLY - If there is a campout and the troop or a patrol goes on a 10 mile hike - EQUALS 2 ACTIVITIES

Again, Thanks to all!

No. This is still one activity.

[mommatoodle]

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ADDITIONALLY - If there is a campout and the troop or a patrol goes on a 10 mile hike - EQUALS 2 ACTIVITIES

****

This to me is just one activity - you did something within that activity but the purpose of the trip was a campout. IMHO the hike would count as a hike for the hiking merit badge. (taken right from hiking requirements on meritbadge.com) BUT it would still only be one activity - not two - only because the hike was within the scope of the campout...


*The hikes in requirements 5 and 6 can be used in fulfilling Second Class (2a) and First Class (3) rank requirements, but only if Hiking merit badge requirements 1, 2, 3, and 4 have been completed to the satisfaction of your counselor. The hikes of requirements 5 and 6 cannot be used to fulfill requirements of other merit badges.


Just my two cents.

[RWSmith]

However.... there's so much more to be gained by the experience that I don't think it's the root of why boys go. ....some of the boys don't even need to go but have said they would never miss camp. The growth within the boy is so obvious when they return.

Hi, Canoe! It's MBs that gets 'em there and it's MBs that keeps 'em comin' back. That being said, I must agree with your comments that I quoted above, simply because now-a-days, we've got Frontier this and Backwoods that, COPE coures here and Mtn. bikes there. Even so, IMHO, MBs are where it all starts; the MBs are the draw, or the hook, if you will. Back when I (Uh oh, here it comes-another fish tale.) served on staff, I slept in a tent for 8 weeks every summer from age 15 to 19 ('til I joined the AF). Back then, every kid who came to summer camp took MB classes or swimming lessons. And every staffer, except the Grubmaster, Program Director and Camp Director, taught MBs. And though a few were easy, none were free. No passes. Was ther other stuff to do? Sure? Lots. But still, the MB program remains the Cornerstone of any BSA Summer Camp.

[don]

RWSmith and all
When do you say its a couple of scouts working on a merit badge versus a patrol working together on a merit badge?
A patrol of 6 decides to work on a merit badge. Only 3 or 4 of them show up for the activity. Would you count this for rank advancement?
If 3 or 4 is a activity why wouldn't 2 be an activity?
What are your thoughts on a patrol that sets up a meeting with a merit badge counselor to work on a merit badge as a patrol, would this count?
I am still struggling with a patrol versus a couple scouts working on a merit badge and what would the difference be of a merit badge marathon and a patrol working together with a counselor?
Everyone seems to be saying if the troop offers the activity is should be counted. But I could not see anywhere where the requirements say a approved activity. Just seems to me if a patrol sets up a meeting with a counselor, that should count also?
You all have me thinking about this one!?
I think that is all of my questions

[RWSmith]

Don,

I don't look at the number of the members of the Patrol (or Troop) that say, commits to a MB; I look at what they do. E.g., A Patrol decides to work on a MB as a team... Two or three of them meet over at the PL's house to work on whatever reqiurement--takes all day, lots of fun, too. Still though, it does not qualify as an activity, to me. However, if the PL goes to the SPL, SM, whomever, and asks for the Patrol to be taken to City Hall, to meet the Mayor and to sit in on a City Council meeting... Ooh, now we're talkin' -- "major" activity. (Indicators: Pretty much anything that requires the SM and ASM to reserve the church's van for an afternoon, and it's a type of function where the Scouts are expected to wear thier Class "A"s... then it looks and walks like a duck, to me.)

BTW, I've really enjoyed this thread... Whoever started it? Thanks.

[riverwalk]

Training, ecspecially life-saving types can not be over emphasized. Glad you were trained and present to assist in time. You asked the right question and acted promptly. As a Paramedic, I've only encountered a couple of times where people used this prior to our arrival....but it was usually very effective! My first life saving opportunity was as a youth, and my Scout training was a big factor. I hope this inspires your son to learn these skills at any opportunity to do so, and that you will share the experience when these trainings are held.

[scoutchallenge]

Was a tour permit issued?

In September I presented a MB Camp to our Scoutmaster, the idea was never presented to the troop. I am a mother with two boys who are not available for summercamp with the troop because of a multi state divorce situation, they need alittle extra exposure to "Camp". Since the majority of the boys are not in need of any more MB's I took it upon myself to gather 7 boys and 4 parents. We got a tour permit and went. The 5 Tenderfoots did the fingerprinting MB and many Road to First Class requirements, including an activity . The two olderboys completed MB started at summer camp or troop meetings. I consider this an event and would argue it till death.

Sometimes you find that your troop has wonderful events planned but you need to look for outside supplements if you want you kids to have the ability to advance. Since the leadership has "older" boys - the parents need to find a way for the "younger" boys to advance. It took my older son 3 years to make it to 1st class (he participates 9 months of the year). Because of the divorce he was not attending camp. I finally have taken it upon myself to step in when the wrong response for advancement is received from the SM. Boy Scouting is more then a Troop. Everyone should participate in as many activities as possible. If your council takes the time to provide an event, you should attend. This is Scouting. We need to support our troop, district and council.

PS - the SM at first didn't accept the MB cards, but then he didn't accept the MB cards from the Summer Camp in Mississippi either. Funny how everyone has a different view. I hope the now understand that Boy Scouting is a national organization.

[commish3]

It's MBs that gets 'em there and it's MBs that keeps 'em comin' back.

Isn't this really a unit by unit perception? If scouts are taught that summer camp is a place to go to get merit badges, then that is how those scouts will perceive it.

If Summer camp is presented as a scouting themed vacation park where you can swim, fire 22 rifles, shoot skeet, shoot bow and arrows, canoe, sail, do high adventure outposts, have fellowship with hundreds of other scouts, and there are advancement opportunities, then that's what summer camp will be to them.

Camp is a merit badge factory only if we as unit leaders make it one to the scouts we serve.

[riverwalk]

scoutchallenge, you are what makes such a Program work to meet the Challenge. We all know people "in it" only for their kids. The good thing is that they are in it, and for their kids. But all Scouters, ecspecially in positions of responsibility, should be doing what is needed for all. Units should survive long after any individual has moved on....for the benefit of new members. It's great if Leaders stay on and help out, but no matter their tenure, the obligation is to all members. One should always think, "why wouldn't you". This can apply to most anything. Kinda like when the Scout asked BP what "Be Prepared" was all about....and BP said to Be Prepared for any ol' thing.