When are Scouts required to use the new 2010 requirements?

[Fibonacci]

I read through the July thread about the new rank requirements. I understand that they will go in to effect on Jan 1, 2010. viewtopic.php?f=48&t=3266

When the requirements were revised in the past, Scouts had a "deadline" to complete a rank under the previous requirements. If the Scout wasn't done by that date, he also had to complete the new requirements to earn that rank. I can't find the source of this information, but it seemed to be clearly stated in the past.

This is the most current information I have been able to find that addresses the changes taking effect in 2010:

Scouts working toward ranks in 2009 may use the new requirements, or may continue to use the old requirements, at their option. If a Scout has started work toward a rank before January 1, 2010, using requirements that were current before January 1, 2010, he may complete that rank only using the old requirements. Any progress toward a rank that is begun after January 1, 2010, must use the requirements as they are presented in the Boy Scout Handbook (34622) or in Boy Scout Requirements book (33216).

http://usscouts.org/advance/changes/advchanges10.asp

For example, does this mean that if he started working in 2009 toward First Class and has at least one First Class requirement signed off, that he never has to complete the 2010 new requirements (LNT & 4 examples)? Of course we want the Scouts to be the best they can, but where is the line drawn? Do I need to be sure every young Scout has the updated requirements in his Handbook? (I'm the Advancement Chair.)

Thanks for your help!

[wagionvigil]

In the latest edition of SCOuting (came today) your answer is

[Fibonacci]

I hope my copy really does arrive today! If not, then tomorrow. (Slow mail delivery.)

[smtroop168]

Kinda/sorta like when MB requirements change. If you have a partial, you can complete using the old MB requirements. You do have the option of using the new MB requirements as well.

[wagionvigil]

If a Scout is working under the Old Book/requirements they may finish only the one rank. SO if finishing Second class he may do that under the old requirements BUT must then use the new requirements for furthur advancement

[smtroop168]

Correct! You use the requirements that are effective when you start a new rank or MB.

Did you guys know that prior to 1958, Camping MB required 50 days/nights? That would have been one a lot of scouts would have waited to start!

[smtroop168]

Scouts working toward ranks in 2009 may use the new requirements, or may continue to use the old requirements, at their option. If a Scout has started work toward a rank before January 1, 2010, using requirements that were current before January 1, 2010, he may complete that rank only using the old requirements. Any progress toward a rank that is begun after January 1, 2010, must use the requirements as they are presented in the Boy Scout Handbook (34622) or in Boy Scout Requirements book (33216).


If you really want to stir the pot, technically the only scouts that would have to be under the new requirements are scouts that join after 1 Jan 2010. Since the BSA allows scouts to work on T-2-1 at the same time, scouts who have one 1st Class requirement signed off but are still Tenderfoot can complete 1st class using the old requirements.

If you want to take it further, a Scout who has earned a MB is technically working toward Eagle (or at least Star).

[wagionvigil]

Scouts working toward ranks in 2009 may use the new requirements, or may continue to use the old requirements, at their option. If a Scout has started work toward a rank before January 1, 2010, using requirements that were current before January 1, 2010, he may complete that rank only using the old requirements. Any progress toward a rank that is begun after January 1, 2010, must use the requirements as they are presented in the Boy Scout Handbook (34622) or in Boy Scout Requirements book (33216).


If you really want to stir the pot, technically the only scouts that would have to be under the new requirements are scouts that join after 1 Jan 2010. Since the BSA allows scouts to work on T-2-1 at the same time, scouts who have one 1st Class requirement signed off but are still Tenderfoot can complete 1st class using the old requirements.

If you want to take it further, a Scout who has earned a MB is technically working toward Eagle (or at least Star).

Matt The last sentence will not fly. The way I was instructed is that you get one rank under the old requirements even if you have 1 requirement for first class signed off, once you are awarded second class you MUST go to the new requirements

[smtroop168]

I'm with you but that's not how it is worded. The scout has "started work" on all three ranks. It should say you complete your current rank under the old requirements. One you have been advanced, then you use the 2010 ones. Can't add to the requirements you know.

[FrankJ]

I believe BSA's intention is to allow current requirements until the next rank earned after that the new requirements should be used. But the truth is the only thing the council sees is that the rank is completed. If the troop decides to use the requirements in the book the scout was issued, there is really nothing to stop them.

[smtroop168]

I believe BSA's intention is to allow current requirements until the next rank earned after that the new requirements should be used. But the truth is the only thing the council sees is that the rank is completed. If the troop decides to use the requirements in the book the scout was issued, there is really nothing to stop them.

I agree. We've talked over and over about units who "do it their way".

Most of the new requirements are no big deal whether they use the old or new ones. The hardest one for me to have a scout "re-do" under the 2010 requirements would be the Activities requirement to show LNT. The requirement still starts off with "Since Joining" so since we allow scouts to work T-2-1 at the same time, a scout could have 8 activities already attended when they make 2nd class, none of which had the LNT requirement. If they now use the new 1st class requirements requiring them to demonstrate LNT on these outings, do they have to do 10 new ones? 5 new ones? 2 new ones?

I know, I'm thinking too much.

[FrankJ]

My view on this is to be fair & reasonable to the scout. If he substantially has completed a rank or requirement, I am not going to make him repeat it just because the rules changed. If he is just started then it is the new rules. As far as LNT on a camp out; we have been following that since before I was in the troop. I like to think most troops are similar to this. I would use that as an opportunity to discuss how he follows leave no trace.

[smtroop168]

Frank...Can't add to or subtract form the requirements you know.


Jerry...The way I was instructed is that you get one rank under the old requirements even if you have 1 requirement for first class signed off, once you are awarded second class you MUST go to the new requirements. Was that a class or something that came across the wire?


I love this stuff!!

[wagionvigil]

Discussion at the Service center

But who is going to check? Right? LOL
The Requirements really do not change much

[smtroop168]

Discussion at the Service center

But who is going to check? Right? LOL
The Requirements really do not change much

Agree but I do like the Life Scout change on having them teach skills. Wish thsy had added that to Star too.

[scoutaholic]

Scouts working toward ranks in 2009 may use the new requirements, or may continue to use the old requirements, at their option. If a Scout has started work toward a rank before January 1, 2010, using requirements that were current before January 1, 2010, he may complete that rank only using the old requirements. Any progress toward a rank that is begun after January 1, 2010, must use the requirements as they are presented in the Boy Scout Handbook (34622) or in Boy Scout Requirements book (33216).

If you really want to stir the pot, technically the only scouts that would have to be under the new requirements are scouts that join after 1 Jan 2010. Since the BSA allows scouts to work on T-2-1 at the same time, scouts who have one 1st Class requirement signed off but are still Tenderfoot can complete 1st class using the old requirements.

If you want to take it further, a Scout who has earned a MB is technically working toward Eagle (or at least Star).

Matt The last sentence will not fly. The way I was instructed is that you get one rank under the old requirements even if you have 1 requirement for first class signed off, once you are awarded second class you MUST go to the new requirements

I'm with you but that's not how it is worded. The scout has "started work" on all three ranks. It should say you complete your current rank under the old requirements. One you have been advanced, then you use the 2010 ones. Can't add to the requirements you know.

Why are we arguing over who can cut corners. It's not like any of the new requirements are harder than the parts of it they may have already done. The documents say a boy may complete ONE rank after the new year that he has started using the old requirements. (Note the part I underlined above.)

[wagionvigil]

Matt and I are just Messing with each other

[smtroop168]

Matt and I are just Messing with each other

We are (and it's fun) but since he started "a" rank can he pick 1st class instead of 2nd if he's a TF? 2nd class has more new requirements.

Does the SM pick a MBC or the MBC?
Does one week of camp mean 6 or 7 days for Camping MB? Remember they had to add that the camping had to be on a scouting event because parents wanted to count family and backyard camping.

Remember we have to deal with parents who unfortunately want to take the easy route for their interpretation of the rules. When I was in the Navy, we called them Sea lawyers.

Enjoy.

[Cowboy]

The bigger issue, as I see it, is in keeping up with the boys and the books. 2009 had some requirement changes also. Now we get into the boys who have been slow at advancement and are still T21 with a 2007 or 2008 published book. It is hard to keep up with the changes in this respect. I can sit on a BOR and completely miss (yep, done it once) the fact that the boy has not completed the current requirements, but has fulfilled them based on his book. We have a small troop, what about the ones with 50+ Scouts?

[Mrw]

We will be adding reminder stickers to the books of the boys who have a rank requirement change they will need to complete at the end of the year. One of our ASM's typed up and formatted a sticker for each new requirement in a size we should be able to fit on the sign-off page for each rank.

And yes, we do have a troop of 50 or so boys and this is the only way to try to keep up with this. (Not sure of the exact number these days as a few have aged out since the last recharter). Fortunately, we have a healthy number of kids who will not be needing these!