New ACP&P (Advancement Policies #33088) pulled from shelves....

[smtroop168]

This new pub has been pulled from the shelves. No real explanation given although the new Eagle Time Extension language evidently was getting a lot of flax.

PG 35
Denial of Time Extensions for Eagle
Candidates Registered as Special
Needs Scouts

In the past, in an effort to secure national
approval for a time extension beyond the
normal range so that their Eagle candidate son
could work on his Eagle Scout requirements
past his 18th birthday, some families have
tried to use nonsevere, temporary medical
conditions such as a learning disorder or
ADD/ADHD as “extenuating circumstances.”
Such requests will continue to be denied,
and families and/or individuals should be
discouraged in requesting a time extension
for these reasons.

[evmori]

WOW! Sounds like National got a little more serious. I like what they have done. It helps eliminate some of the gray areas.

Does anyone know if the new version is on-line?

[Nuts4Scouts]

Since when is ADHD "temporary"?

[evmori]

Since when is ADHD "temporary"?

When it's misdiagnosed.

[FrankJ]

ADHD is a broad spectrum disorder. So there is a wide range of issues. A large percentage of people with ADHD are above average intelligence. There also a lot of treatment strategies. By the time you are 18 chances are you have found compensations that largely negates the negative parts of having ADHD. But you are never "cured" anymore than you be cured of being blond. (you can die your hair though.)

Be itself it is not a reason to extend the age deadline.

[mhjacobson]

He also refuses all POR because he doesn't like them (lazy) so he is sitting at 1st Class for almost 2 years now. We do have SMC's and BOR's with him about every other month and get nowhere. Oh well, can't make him a "good" Scout, can just offer the tools.

Sm conferences are for, among other things, lack of advancement, participation issues, and the like. BOR are for advancement issues.

[mhjacobson]

This new pub has been pulled from the shelves. No real explanation given although the new Eagle Time Extension language evidently was getting a lot of flax.

PG 35
Denial of Time Extensions for Eagle
Candidates Registered as Special
Needs Scouts

In the past, in an effort to secure national
approval for a time extension beyond the
normal range so that their Eagle candidate son
could work on his Eagle Scout requirements
past his 18th birthday, some families have
tried to use nonsevere, temporary medical
conditions such as a learning disorder or
ADD/ADHD as “extenuating circumstances.”
Such requests will continue to be denied,
and families and/or individuals should be
discouraged in requesting a time extension
for these reasons.

As one of the scouters who participated in the drafting of the current edition of Scouting for Youth with Disabilities, I was shocked by this wording as it was obviously written by someone who has no understanding of what is a learning disorder or ADD/ADHD. Yes, with lots of support, and treatment (and in some cases medication), the symptomology of both of these can be controlled. However, the issue has been that some scouts (or their parents) will apply for an age extension which can be denied if the nature of the disability is not so severe that with allowable modifications to the advancement requirements for ranks, the scout would be able to attain Eagle before their 18th birthday. Each application is taken as an individual case (as it should be).

[evmori]

This new pub has been pulled from the shelves. No real explanation given although the new Eagle Time Extension language evidently was getting a lot of flax.

PG 35
Denial of Time Extensions for Eagle
Candidates Registered as Special
Needs Scouts

In the past, in an effort to secure national
approval for a time extension beyond the
normal range so that their Eagle candidate son
could work on his Eagle Scout requirements
past his 18th birthday, some families have
tried to use nonsevere, temporary medical
conditions such as a learning disorder or
ADD/ADHD as “extenuating circumstances.”
Such requests will continue to be denied,
and families and/or individuals should be
discouraged in requesting a time extension
for these reasons.

As one of the scouters who participated in the drafting of the current edition of Scouting for Youth with Disabilities, I was shocked by this wording as it was obviously written by someone who has no understanding of what is a learning disorder or ADD/ADHD. Yes, with lots of support, and treatment (and in some cases medication), the symptomology of both of these can be controlled. However, the issue has been that some scouts (or their parents) will apply for an age extension which can be denied if the nature of the disability is not so severe that with allowable modifications to the advancement requirements for ranks, the scout would be able to attain Eagle before their 18th birthday. Each application is taken as an individual case (as it should be).

Yep each application should be looked at on an individual basis but if the extension is asked for solely because a Scout has ADD/ADHD then I agree with the policy.

[mhjacobson]

.

Yep each application should be looked at on an individual basis but if the extension is asked for solely because a Scout has ADD/ADHD then I agree with the policy.

I do not understand what you mean by 'agree with the policy'. Do you mean that the application should be automatically approved or sent back for more information? Since there are differences in severity of ADHD or LD, there are scouts who could legitimately be granted an extension while others would not be eligible for an extension.

For example: a scout who has ADHD that does not infere with his learning, has A's and B's in his school (without modified grading scale), etc., may not be eligible for an age extension because his ability to advance is not hampered by his disability. Or the scout who has not applied for requirement modifications until he sees that he cannot earn Eagle before his 18th birthday suddenly needs an age extension and the advancement committee who reviews the application sees that, with proper modifications, the scout could have easily advanced. The policy is clear -- the decision is on an individual basis.

[smtroop168]

My understanding is that an overwhelming number of extension requests National has been receiving are due to "late onset" of ADD/ADHD/Learning Disorders.

Its interesting that the wording says "will continue to be denied", which tells me they have been denying these requests for some time and by "codifying" it, they are discouraging parents/leaders/councils from sending these in. If there is more to it, then I'm sure National will consider it.

[wagionvigil]

Good There is no reason whatsoever to give an extention to one of these scouts. Sorry folks before you start flaming me. AFter 34+ in education I think I can speak as an expert. I had add/adhd etc kids in band and they had no problem learning music or shows. The reason these guys are needing an extension is because they are basicially_______________________ fill in the blank and mom and dad did not want to push them and hurt their feelings. My son fits in this bracket and was an Eagle at 15 because I refused to not push him. My wife and I helped him but made himaware he had to keep moving along. Now he is a teacher, Whitewater Guide and a high adventure trip leader.

[evmori]

Wagon is right on the money!

[Cowboy]

I do not feel that there should be a time extension for anyone. Harsh? Maybe, but the bottom line is this: A boy has 7 years to complete the requirements if they cross over. A boy can join at the age of 16.5 and still (theroetically) reach Eagle. Maybe I am mistaken, but isn't the Rank of Eagle suppose to denote a leader? Isn't it suppose to denote that this man is above and beyond the norm? If they can't complete the requiremnts in the allotted 7 years, then they are probably not above and beyond the average. There may be some exceptions such as a boy who travels a lot or has been in the hospital for an extended period of time, but even then most of the time they could still complete in time.

[mhjacobson]

As a former school psychologist and special education administrator, and educational law professional (and state special education monitor), I must respectfully disagree with Wagon. There are times when a kid has been able to fake it throughout school and it is not until they enter the middle school or even high school when their disability becomes apparent. Given that statement, it is rare that a school psychologist or psychiatrist is fooled when a person's 'late exhibition of symptoms' is more an expression of the parent's desire to help the child or his desire to take the easy way out.

The request for age extension must be accompanied by the usual pile of diagnostic materials, signatures of the appropriate professionals, and scouting history. The application is reviewed at the local council level and does not even reach national unless it is approved or if the parents appeal the decision of the local council. I can guarantee you that when we see a case of 'late onset' disability, accompanied by a scouting history of not advancing, and then look at the school records and see high grades and no support for the existance of a diasability, the request stops here.

The problem with the statement in the manual is that it takes a hard line and sounds like scouting almost automatically denies the requests. Requests for expensions, where appropriate, are granted to the scout.

[mhjacobson]

As a former school psychologist and special education administrator, and educational law professional (and state special education monitor), I must respectfully disagree with Wagon. There are times when a kid has been able to fake it throughout school and it is not until they enter the middle school or even high school when their disability becomes apparent. Given that statement, it is rare that a school psychologist or psychiatrist is fooled when a person's 'late exhibition of symptoms' is more an expression of the parent's desire to help the child or his desire to take the easy way out.

The request for age extension must be accompanied by the usual pile of diagnostic materials, signatures of the appropriate professionals, and scouting history. The application is reviewed at the local council level and does not even reach national unless it is approved or if the parents appeal the decision of the local council. I can guarantee you that when we see a case of 'late onset' disability, accompanied by a scouting history of not advancing, and then look at the school records and see high grades and no support for the existance of a diasability, the request stops here.

The problem with the statement in the manual is that it takes a hard line and sounds like scouting almost automatically denies the requests. Requests for expensions, where appropriate, are granted to the scout.

[AquilaNegra2]

ITA with you, Wagion. National is not saying that Scouts with disabilities, even learning ones, should not be accommodated. Only that it should not be an EXCUSE used to garner more time to complete an Eagle project.

Most Scouts run into a problem of some sort or another on their projects; part of leadership is dealing with those problems. A Scout with disabilities such as ADHD, autism, Asperger's, or dyslexia knows in advance some of the problems he will face. He should plan for them, allowing extra time.

[evmori]

My son is severely to profoundly deaf. He joined Scouting as a Wolf. He earned his Eagle without any time extension or other accommodations.

[wagionvigil]

My wife ran Webelos camp at Conestoga for several years. SHe saw a profpund change at some point in the boys of one unit they came every year.They were no longer actiing like boys they were to quiet ,not bouncing off the walls. REally did not seem normal. WHat she discovered was they had parents that all took them to the same Doctor and they were all on Meds for add/adhd. What is normal boy behavior has now turned into ADHD. Parents do not what to deal with what is really a normal behavior for a boy of that age.

[smtroop168]

Remember Extensions are granted where the scout can show he cannot complete the requirements prior to his 18th birthday due to extenuating circumstances as defined on pg 25 of the ACPP #33088

Extenuating circumstances are defined as conditions
or situations that are totally beyond the control of the
Scout or Venturer.

I think what National was trying to do and say is that ADD/ADHD is not totally beyond the control of the scout. particularly if some are able to get medication.

Also, the "late onset" to me is a stretch. If the scout has this condition, it should have been identified and documented long before the week before they turn 18.

Two "extenuating circumstances" I know of is a scout who was in a bad car wreck 4 months before he turned 18. He still needed to finish Personal Fitness but until he was able to get the pins out of his leg and rehab, he couldn't do his final PT assessment. The second was a natural disaster due to a rockslide that wiped out his Eagle Project site and he was prohibited by the park to get access, requiring a change of location taking him past his 18th birthday. Both were approved

[wagionvigil]

Excuses excuses everyone has a reason why they should not need to go by the rules. Matt what you stated is a good reason. Johnny should not have to do the swimming requirement because he cannot swim. Well learn. Everyone can swim. It may take more time for some to learn than others.

Johnny should not have to meet the camping requirements because he does not like to camp. It is too buggy.Or too cold or too wet or he hates to go to the bathroom in the woods

Johnny should not have to do first aid because he does not like blood.

Johnny should not have to do Family Life because it takes 90 days and he turns 18 in 89