New ACP&P (Advancement Policies #33088) pulled from shelves....

[FrankJ]

Actually they are going by "the rules". They are applying under "the rules" for an extension allowed for special needs. The question, which as always an individual one, is does their disablement rise to level to merit the extension. It sounds like the BSA opinion is the ones that have ADHD but function in the main stream will not get an extension. An opinion that I think must of us agree with. But as been pointed out by others you still have to follow "the rules" even when you do not agree with them.

Just because ADHD is over diagnosed does not mean it is a real issue that can be very debilitating.

The ones qualify be quite clear because they will not be in the mainstream school environment.

[smtroop168]

Actually they are going by "the rules". They are applying under "the rules" for an extension allowed for special needs.

Frank is correct...this is listed in the "Advancement for Youth Members
With Disabilities" section. The operative word is that these scouts are REGISTERED as Special Needs Scouts which BSA lists as:

"The operative words are: mentally retarded or severely
physically handicapped young people. Examples of these
medical conditions include:
• Down syndrome
• Legal blindness
• Severe autism
• People permanently confined to wheelchairs,
i.e., someone who is quadriplegic
• People who are deaf"

Two paragraphs down:

This extension of age is not provided as a window of
opportunity for those who are less challenged such as
someone who has a moderate learning disability or for
those who just can’t seem to advance within the normal
time restrictions. Individuals whose medical conditions are
not as severe as defined in clause 20 do not qualify for the
age restriction exemption and must follow the normal age
requirements for advancement. (my emphasis added) If in doubt, contact the National Youth Development office.

So what I supposed has happened is that scouts are claiming ADD/ADHD even though they are not registered as special needs scouts.

[wagionvigil]

LAZY

[Cowboy]

Wagion hits one out of the park.

[wagionvigil]

Matt, so if Johnny wants an exception to the swimming requirements because he is " afraid" of the water he is sol if not registered as a "special needs scout". I relly like this ,All Eagles Must be swimmers

[FrankJ]

Is not being able to swim a symptom of ADHD?

[cballman]

NON Swimmers are NOT a symptom of ADHD. My son has ADHD and is a BSA Lifeguard and a EAGLE SCOUT. I have to agree with some other posters scouts AND parents are just plain LAZY and expect just because they show up the earned something. Apron strings need to be cut.

[evmori]

Yup lazy! Playing one's disability is just wrong.

[smtroop168]

I thought this wording was interesting

"for those who just can’t seem to advance within the normal
time restrictions."

I really meant to get my requirements done but I just can't seem to get them done so can I have an extension. A year or so should be plenty.

[cballman]

When you stop amd think about Scouting and the time limit. What about High School do they put time limits on it? Either you do it in the time or you dont go to graduation. Same for Scouting I think I have seen 1 case that I have said that I would have no problem giving an unlimited time extenision. This young man was almost finished with his Eagle then a Staph infection ravaged his body and last time I saw him was about two years ago and he is now confined to a wheelchair and is starting to relearn most everything from scratch. They last time I inquired about him he was getting back some motor skills. I told the DE that I would sign for this young man to have an unlimited extension. But to come up with a medical problem that just enables lazy then I have a major problem. This will probley open up a few cans of worms but we as parents are enableing our kids to be lazy and when someone says something about it then we get pissed. And then we still enable them to be lazy.

[mhjacobson]

There is an exception to the term "registered as special needs scouts." BSA automatically registers scouts who are registered as members of units that are identified as a 'special needs unit' as special needs scouts. If they are not a member of a special needs scout, they must go through the process of filing an Eagle Age Extension request in order to have their designation changes. For example, in my troop there is a moderately severe autistic student whose father prefers to not be in a special needs troop (as he spends all of his academic day in special needs classes). Is he eligible for protection as a special needs scout, sure, but national does not know of his existance until there is a proper filing of an Individual Scout Advancement Plan, and a request for Age Extension.

As to the comment regarding swimming. Any special educator will tell you that there is a difference between a fear of water (most non-swimmers) and phoebia of water (diagnosed by a psychiatrist). One will definitely not get a waiver from the requirements, and the other based upon the diagnosis from the psychiatrist. I remember one case where the psychiatrist wrote that the scout had a phoebia of water, but then went on to describe the fear of swimming with fishes, etc. Problem solved -- first class swimming was in a poor where there were no fishes. Scout swam and became first class.

Had another where asthma was so severe, the scout scould not accomplish swimming first class swimming (ran out of air) after about 50 feet. Was considered to be a legitimate issue. Scout was able to swim about 25 yards before he had to pause for 5 minutes to catch breath. Guess what -- he swam his 100 yards in 25 yds increment with 5 minutes at the edge of the pool between each segment -- scout and parent stated that this ws the hardest thing he had ever done -- but he was very proud of passing swimming.

[mhjacobson]

As to the comment about age extension in HS. The federal law is very clear that the age can be extended up to age 21 (or the end of the school year when the youth turns 21). There is a law (Brittany's Law) that states that a special needs youth can participate in a graduation with his/her class without a diploma (certificate of attendance) and then can continue on until either age 21 or awarding of a diploma (whatever comes first).

Not all age extensions are unlimited -- but can be based upon the needs of the scout.

[wagionvigil]

Actually a child has until they are age 21 if they are indentified as a special needs student. Not all special need students qualify but many do Like the list Matt posted. Except for the quadraplegic as they may be very sharp I have worked with students that had brain injuries that occured at child birth. Downs Kids, Profound Autiism, But one was a musical savant. But they were all identified when they started their education.

[smtroop168]

I don't think National was addressing the "obviously disabled" scouts that some of you have referred to. Those parents that have boys that fall in this situation, to be honest have bigger day to day issues than their sons making Eagle. They also have already pursued and understand the policies and procedures for alternative rank advancement.

It's the large number of extension requests they supposedly receive from those scouts who say "I woke up this morning, haven't completed all my Eagle requirements and I'm almost 18 and the reason is that I discovered I have ADD/ADHD."

And as we know, most councils don't like controversy, so they kick it to National to be the bad guys.

[FrankJ]

There are two reasons you can request an extension according to the 2009 policy handbook. One is a special needs case, which is really not an extension because you are essentially asking that the scout continue as an youth past 18. So you can continue all advancement, not just eagle. That question, I expect, is generally ask & answered long before the scout is 18.

The other is the extenuating circumstances which cannot be in the scouts control. I have been told be my district's advancement people that these are far and few between. I do not see & LDs fitting in this category.


How big of an issue is this? We have a number of life scouts that that have turned 18. They by in large not lazy, just have had other priorities & let time slip up on them. Not one of them asked for an extension.

[smtroop168]

There are two reasons you can request an extension according to the 2009 policy handbook. One is a special needs case, which is really not an extension because you are essentially asking that the scout continue as an youth past 18. So you can continue all advancement, not just eagle. That question, I expect, is generally ask & answered long before the scout is 18.

The other is the extenuating circumstances which cannot be in the scouts control. I have been told be my district's advancement people that these are far and few between. I do not see & LDs fitting in this category.


How big of an issue is this? We have a number of life scouts that that have turned 18. They by in large not lazy, just have had other priorities & let time slip up on them. Not one of them asked for an extension.

Frank...I guess it was/is a big enough issue that National felt that they needed to put this in the 2010 ACPP version.

[Billiken]

I have a 13-year old autistic Scout in my troop.

In addition, he was abused as a todler and has lived with same foster parents for the last 9 years.
(Last I heard, his biological parents are in jail in another state for drug-related crimes.)

Nearly a year ago I made this Scout's "situation" known to the Cleveland Council.

Should he need an age extension for advancements (not likely), it has already been granted/in his BSA records.

MODERATORS:
As the SM of the above Scout
AND
the parent of a 16-year old child/Eagle Scout suffering from ADHD (inattentive form) plus a tick disorder (in the autism family)
IMHO.....................

I think this thead has digressed from the a BSA-centered topic which we should be discussing on this forum.