If it looks like a duck and qucks like a duck Then ---------

[wagionvigil]

On our BSA climbing diretors Group it was brought up that a local Cub Pack was looking at taking their kids to an Adventure Park that actually was a high ropes course. When they asked about it they were told No. Of course nthis was not good enough for some of the pack leaders. It was really simple to explain finally although the leaders are still not ok with the answer. According to BSA ropes course aka COPE courses are not permitted for Cub Scouts and webelos. Now if the parents want to do this as an individual family activity that is their call but if there is any I mean any inkling that it has anything to do with the pack then it is our call. Here is a rule of thumb if it is an activity you normally would not see at a camp then you cannot do it.

you will not find a COPE course at a Cub Camp or a Pistol Range at a Boy scout camp unless they have a Venturing camping program. And then it is only for the Ventuers

[jr56]

Cub Scouts and high ropes courses do not seem like a good mix to me either.

[FrankJ]

So I take that the tour permit was not approved?

[wagionvigil]

From what was posted yes. But they were still fighting it. In the Mix was a BSA COPE Director from the pack that was behind the entire thing. He saw nothing wrong with it. Of course his boy/boys are involved.

[mt_goodrich]

Normally, reactions like this come from leaders who are not trained and do not know any better. However, the person behind this is BSA trained and should know better.

[FrankJ]

On one level I can feel the Cope directors pain, but it is clear in G2SS that it is not in the cub program.

Would be the same if a master dive instructor wanted to take his pack scuba diving.

Now if you had a underwater cope course....

[wagionvigil]

Frank he should feel no pain he should get a letter telling him he is no longer allowed to work on any BSA COPE course. Thatb would be like me taking Webelos rappelling because my son wanted to do it

[deweylure]

I have seen the same scenario time after time . Skirt the rules. dont worry, until something tragic happens. I have seen this with trained leaders as a matter of fact some were trainers.
Eventually the scout program suffers.

I can agree that the guilty people should be asked to leave.

deweylure

[FrankJ]

What rule has he broken? How often does something tragic happen in scouting? I give you a hint. The council accident insurance is $1.00 a head. Admittedly it is probably because most of us follow the rules. The cub pack asked permission to do an activity. G2SS is a mixture of guidelines, policies, rules, and political ideology. The boy scout lawyer in me would argue that the parts not in bold are guidelines. The interpretation of it depends on the people in council that approve the tour permit. The others are just opinion. Might be right, but still just an opinion.

If after having the TP denied, they still go and do it as a scout event, then it becomes an issue.

[wagionvigil]

AS a trained NCS COPE Director he knows that cubs are not permited to do COPE/Rope Course yet was one of those pushing it. That is what he did!

[deweylure]

If you are the trainer or are trained and know the rule yet you insist on skirting around the issue then its breaking a rule.

Ex. Old leadership wanted to go to a private farm and shoot. Problem shooting was a generic term they meant rifle/pistol for boy scouts. Wrong pistols not allowed, its not an approved range and the rifle were not all 22 's. No certified range captain either by BSA.

I see a big problem with this type of attitude some leaders use.


Dewey

[fritz1255]

For those who have ever filed a Tour Permit (based on responses very few who replied to this post), you are not asked for a schedule of events such as "COPE Course". Under "purpose of trip", you simply write "camping".

[smtroop168]

For those who have ever filed a Tour Permit (based on responses very few who replied to this post), you are not asked for a schedule of events such as "COPE Course". Under "purpose of trip", you simply write "camping".

But if you are knowingly planning on doing a COPE course which involves climbing etc during your "camping" tour purpose, you do need to list that under "Activities" and have someone trained in Climb on Safely.

[jr56]

True, I would rather not try to skirt the rules. They are there for a reason, and if a scout gets hurt, you are left hanging with no safety net.

[FrankJ]

Garbage in = garbage out.

If you intentionally misstate or understate the purpose of the tour permit then you really have not received permission for what you are doing. Besides, when you fill out the tour permit (for those who have not), You will come across check boxes for swimming, climbing, boating, flying & back country activities.

You also sign that you have read G2SS and agree to follow various guide lines such as Climb on safely.

Admittedly the online version is a check box rather than a signature, but the intent is the same.

[WeeWillie]

A scout is trustworthy. A tour leader who mistates the purpose of the trip and fails to check off appropriate tour requirements from the G2SS is violating one of our core principles. If an accident occurs he or she puts himself or herself in legal trouble along with the CO. Several years ago a CO fired the entire troop leadership over LTP / G2SS issues.

[wagionvigil]

A scout is trustworthy. A tour leader who mistates the purpose of the trip and fails to check off appropriate tour requirements from the G2SS is violating one of our core principles. If an accident occurs he or she puts himself or herself in legal trouble along with the CO. Several years ago a CO fired the entire troop leadership over LTP / G2SS issues.

Need more of that!

[fritz1255]

Need more of what? Firing all Troop leadership who ever broke a BSA rule? You would have to fire most of the adult leaders in this country, myself included. The only time I have ever seen a person kicked out of the organization was when he was in the process of being indicted for fraud, which clearly breaks the first scout law (trustworthy).

[wagionvigil]

when you clearly violate a rule that is a big safety issue I say Good Bye an what we have been discussing COPE as cubs It is clearly a Big Safety Issue

[Nuts4Scouts]

Need more of what? Firing all Troop leadership who ever broke a BSA rule?

We need more CO's who take their role seriously, and pay attention to what their BSA units are doing.