Reconvened BoR

[Mrw]

It does rather sound like this guy is there more because Mom wants him to be than because he really wants to be.

Odds are after Jamboree he either decides he wants to be in the program, or he grows up enough to tell Mom he does not want to be in scouts firmly enough to make it stick.

[wagionvigil]

He may end up going home early from the Jamboree

[Cowboy]

Finally:
DE is a great guy but spineless.
SM is a great guy with a lot to offer, but once again, can not deal with confrontation.
CC: Has notified us that he is "retiring" after this month. Will be moving far away in the near future.
Treasurer: Has resigned as her son dropped out.
Secretary: Haven't been able to get anyone to step up, so I have been doing this one for two years.
AC: My wife and one other lady. After this situation my wife is resigning.
The rest of the members are the ones who will not step up to the plate, but spend a lot of time complaining about how things are being done. I would get no backing from 75% of them. I was hoping to find some way that would "bypass" the need for TC and DE meetings and be able to just lay out a policy stating that this is wrong.

[smtroop168]

Finally:
DE is a great guy but spineless.
SM is a great guy with a lot to offer, but once again, can not deal with confrontation.
CC: Has notified us that he is "retiring" after this month. Will be moving far away in the near future.
Treasurer: Has resigned as her son dropped out.
Secretary: Haven't been able to get anyone to step up, so I have been doing this one for two years.
AC: My wife and one other lady. After this situation my wife is resigning.
The rest of the members are the ones who will not step up to the plate, but spend a lot of time complaining about how things are being done. I would get no backing from 75% of them. I was hoping to find some way that would "bypass" the need for TC and DE meetings and be able to just lay out a policy stating that this is wrong.

You've got a lot of fish to fry to keep this unit going.

I did find a reference in the "pulled back version of the #33088". In the 12 steps of Life ot EAgle it says "A reasonable attempt should be made to reassemble the members of the first board when the board is reconvened". This refers to when an Eagle Board is adjourned like my Req 6 situation not necessarily this one.

[razor_strop]

The general topic of the BoR was the Scout Law. One of the members discussed courtosey and used the example that this boy never turns in trip permission slips until the day of the trip and that this is not courteous to those who are trying to purchase food and make transportation arrangements. He was asked if he understood the example. He looked at her for over a minute and finally said" Yeah". When asked what his favorite MB was he finally responded; "Art, I think". Why that one? "I don't know, it was easy." He was asked if he had completed any of his ER MB's and was unable to say. He does not have a sash (even though one has been offered free by a couple of people) so he was unable to refer to that. His uniform did not have position or rank badges on it, claims that the dog chewed them off again. It has been suggested that he may hang up his uniform to prevent this. He is on his second handbook for the year due to tossing it around and leaving it outside.
After the ERMB question the questioner finally had enough and plainly asked him: "Do you feel that you have earned this rank?" This is the question that he never answered.
No, there was no written follow up as the SM directed the AC not to, as he was talking to Scout and mom in person about it. I had directed her to do so, but he outranks me and she doesn't have enough "backbone" to stand up to him. It is all about going to Jambo. Two of the other boys going are going to be very upset that he was passed since they have worked thier butts off to make the ranks that they hold. (Eagle, Life almost Eagle)

What follows is my opinion only. It seems there are a couple problems here. Perhaps I'm reading more into the situation than was actually there, but the highlighted board questions above seem more accusatory and negative than positive and inquisitive. Although the board wanted to get the Scout to maybe do some introspection from their questions, I'm betting what the Scout heard was "Why aren't you more courteous?", "Why is your uniform all screwed up?", "What's wrong with you?", "Why should we award you this rank, even though you've completed all the requirements in your handbook?". Gee, I wonder why the Scout shut down and became unresponsive to what appears to have been a verbal beating.

It sounds like the committee chair should get with the unit commissioner and schedule a time to have some classroom-based Board of Review training conducted by troop-external trainers in an effort to show everyone what "right" looks like and avoid making a BOR into an inquisition. Just like any other vocation or avocation, working with youth effectively isn't for everyone; some don't have the patience or personality to do it very well. That's not a hit on their worth as a person, but it is something they should know about and recognize where they may be part of the problem rather than helping come to a solution.

As for the SM directing the AC's work, to me that sounds well outside his role in the troop. Whether he was talking to the Scout and his family or not, the board had a codified responsibility to write that letter. If he had issues with that, then he needed to talk to the CC and AC and ASK for assistance in his efforts, not DIRECT them. I wonder how the SM would take to the CC directing the actions of his ASMs without working through him first. The SM has no directive authority over any committee member; that's the CC's role.

[Fred Johnson]

My apologies in advance for pontificating.

#1 Have sympathy and understanding for this scout. Most scouts have uniforms cleaned, sewn and hung up by their parents. Those are the scouts who would also realize their uniform is not right. Most scouts are reminded about their sign up forms by their parents. I could be very very wrong, but this family sounds like they have not mastered home life yet. Don't take it out on the scout. If anything, look for someway that the scout can benefit from the troop. Find the positive in this scout and find a way the scout can benefit from the troop. Maybe it is just as a safe haven of friends who lift his self-esteem.

#2 This is also a learning opportunity for the two other scouts attending the Jamboree. Counsel them to take pride in their achievements without judging whether another scout is worthy of the rank. It is an important character trait to learn to let things like this pass. This scout comes from a different situation than they do. Their future is brighter for how they earned it. This scout will face more challenges in life because of what he hasn't learned yet. If anything, they should learn to say an honest congratulation to this scout.

#3 The most important thing is to get the troop leaders / adults working well together. My 1st son's troop is great because we are the best of friends. We enjoy enjoy each others company. We respect and trust each others judgement. I'd focus first on building the friendships and understanding between the adult leaders. Then, the respect, trust and volunteers will automatically follow. At camp, this is done with many many games of hearts, cribbage, spades or just sitting around the camp fire talking. Away from camp, it can be done by going to have same daddy juice or at the square table meeting or when no scout shirts are allowed. Or, a sports game or helping each other out now and then.

I like the comments from razor_strop with one minor exception. Adult leader roles and who directs who. He's absolutely right and I hope troops work like that. BUT... the adults should work well with each other. When it becomes necessary to argue who's job definition does what, a much bigger problem exists.

[alex gregory]

I'm sorry if I offend, but I do not think it is appropriate at a BOR for rank advancement to ask a scout if he has "earned" the rank. That is pretty close to re-testing, and pretty darn offensive. I think I understand the frustration that led to the question being asked, but that does not make it an appropriate question. The decision of whether or not the requirements have been satisfied is supposed to happen before the BOR. If at a BOR a scout is being uncooperative or disrespectful (and it sounds like this scout was both) then simply call it quits and let Junior know that he will get another BOR when he is feeling better and ready, and explain the process for rescheduling the BOR.

[evmori]

What ya got here is a kid who runs the house he lives in. He get's what he wants without having to do anything to get it. Nor are there any consequences for anything he does. Sad very sad!

[smtroop168]

For the relatively new members here, ain't it interesting how these topics are handled here? We went from do the same members of BOR#1 have to be on BOR#2, to "the Paul Harvey" trials and tribulations of the unit leadership and a scout who may or may not even want to advance other than the fear of God his mother probably put into him and that his Jambo trip hangs in the balance.


Some tidbits from the BSA Advancement Policy book:

"The members of the board of review should have the following objectives in mind when they conduct the review:

To make sure the Scout has done what he was supposed to do for the rank. - Maybe drove the "earned question"

To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit. Must not be too good based on his demeanor but didn't appear he wanted to share

To encourage the Scout to progress further. Never got to this one

The board should attempt to determine the Scout's ideals and goals. The board should make sure that a good standard of performance has been met. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community."

Here's my prediction...the scout will never go before another BOR because he will not put in the effort to do the hard stuff and fade out when he hits HS.

[Cowboy]

**Uniform issue: It was not brought up at this BoR. It has been discussed with him at EVERY monthly uniform inspection. It has also been pointed out to him (in a kind way) after every CoH at which he has received an advancement, position, patrol or QU patch by indicating where it should go (since he never has the old one on). I was indicating one of the "issues" with this particular boy, not something that was actually discussed at that time.
**Permission slips: Our Troop takes a very pro-active approach. Permission slips are emailed out twice, once by the AC and once buy the SM. There are hard copies available at every meeting for a month prior to the outing, with one handed to each boy with his name already on it. Additionally the boys are reminded on a weekly basis (again for at least a month) that they are due on such a date. All the boy has to do is take it home and get it signed. Yes, partially moms fault, but the boy needs to own some of the responsibility also. They always use the excuse that the printer or computer was down so they could not print it off.
**It should be noted that all of the original members went into the BoR anticipating passing this boy on. In fact our previous AC (who let ANYTHING slide) had a number of each rank patches in stock and the AC brought a 1st Class to the CoH so that he could receive it that night with the other boys. They convened 45 minutes before a CoH just for this boy because he had waited until the last minute to do things. That is not a hostile BoR, that is a group of people who are going out of thier way (2 left work early that day) to help a kid out. I think this is part of what is really burning me up about the whole thing. People really did go out of thier way for him and they all got the big raspberry when he was not prepared for his BoR.

[Nuts4Scouts]

I do not see anywhere in the BSA First Class requirements where is states a Scout must have all of his permission slips turned in on time, his patches put on his uniform, a merit badge sash, never loose his handbook, or that he must memorize which MB's are required for Eagle.

I also do not find anywhere a requirement to participate in fundraisers, march in parades, or somehow know when the rude person in the street honking their car horn is honking for you.

Where does any any BSA publication state that living by the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday/daily life means ONLY while with the Troop?

I really don't blame this Scout for clamming up. He sounds like he was confused and scared. It also sounds to me like this boy has some problems which are being ignored by the Troop.

Personally, I feel the first BOR overstepped their bounds. While it was not the SM's job to fix things, and he also overstepped, I can rather understand why he did step in, and helped get a new BOR for the Scout.

[evmori]

I do not see anywhere in the BSA First Class requirements where is states a Scout must have all of his permission slips turned in on time, his patches put on his uniform, a merit badge sash, never loose his handbook, or that he must memorize which MB's are required for Eagle.

I also do not find anywhere a requirement to participate in fundraisers, march in parades, or somehow know when the rude person in the street honking their car horn is honking for you.

Where does any any BSA publication state that living by the Scout Oath and Law in your everyday/daily life means ONLY while with the Troop?

I really don't blame this Scout for clamming up. He sounds like he was confused and scared. It also sounds to me like this boy has some problems which are being ignored by the Troop.

Personally, I feel the first BOR overstepped their bounds. While it was not the SM's job to fix things, and he also overstepped, I can rather understand why he did step in, and helped get a new BOR for the Scout.

Everyday life INCLUDES while with the Troop. Everything you brought up is dealt with in the Scout Oath and Law. These are not just statements to recite, they are statements to live by.

He's not confused. He doesn't really care but he wants to go to Jamboree! And maybe if he does go, his attitude will change. But passing him on a BOR just so he can go to Jamboree is setting a dangerous precedent and cheapening the advancement process.

Just my opinion.

[FrankJ]

He's not confused. He doesn't really care but he wants to go to Jamboree!

And you can tell all that with a couple pages of text on the internet?

[evmori]

He's not confused. He doesn't really care but he wants to go to Jamboree!

And you can tell all that with a couple pages of text on the internet?

Based on what was posted, yep.

[Cowboy]

In my opinion and obviously the opinion of those on the first BoR: The Scout Law, Motto and Oath are to be lived in a boys daily life, not just at meetings, and not just outside of meetings.
**Failure to turn Permission slips in on time is disrespectful to others. Especially when we have discussed the need over and over again.
**Read #33088 a Scout is to appear in front of the BoR in as complete of uniform as possible. Not having his patches, badges etc. means incomplete, especially if he has had them for months on end.
**This boy has made use of Camperships in the past. He (mom) even applied for a campership to Jambo. There have been numerous conversations over the past couple of years discussing with the boys how fundraisers pay for the patches, badges, and some of the outings. All boys are expected to participate in the fundraisers, they are Troop functions. We are not here to teach the boys to take handouts. It is disrespectful for this boy to ask for money that the other boys have raised while being unwilling to assist in the fundraisers. FYI: He sold two boxes of popcorn last year.
** Nope, none of my "complaints" are specified in the 1st Class rank requirements. Neither is it specifically stated in those requiremnts that he should not smoke, drink alcohol, swear, or shoplift.

Are we being too hard on this boy? NO! My son who I am proud to say is an Eagle, recently decided to swear on a Scout outing. He was upbraided by the SM & ASM and punished by not being allowed to go on the next campout. Harsh? Yep,especially since the parents who complained about his language have been heard to swear on occasion. No where does it say that a Scout should not swear, but I can garrantee that if he were to Board for a palm right now those same parents would deny him based on the fact that he swore and was setting a bad example to the younger boys. What did he say after his SMC regarding his language? Great, now I won't get my palm before Jambo.

[Fred Johnson]

Pub 33088 - "Should" is not must or shall. "The Scout should be neat in his appearance and should be in a coat and tie or his uniform, which should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly."

I just consulted on this subject at a unit where the leaders wanted to deny boards of review because the two scouts were not in their Class A uniform. The troop had returned the day before from a camp out where the scouts wore their Class A most of the weekend. Also, the troop has a summer uniform rule as Class B standard. (not sure where that standard came from) Of course these scouts should and did receive their BORs.

"Should" is important. Scouting is a uniformed organization. We encourage proper uniforming using "positive" methods. Most importantly, we support the scouts and make decisions in their favor whenever possible.

[scoutaholic]

I'm sorry if I offend, but I do not think it is appropriate at a BOR for rank advancement to ask a scout if he has "earned" the rank. That is pretty close to re-testing, and pretty darn offensive. I think I understand the frustration that led to the question being asked, but that does not make it an appropriate question. The decision of whether or not the requirements have been satisfied is supposed to happen before the BOR. If at a BOR a scout is being uncooperative or disrespectful (and it sounds like this scout was both) then simply call it quits and let Junior know that he will get another BOR when he is feeling better and ready, and explain the process for rescheduling the BOR.

I think the question can be taken in several ways. It is very hard to type voice inflection and body language.

If the boy understood the question to be an attack or accusation, I can understand why he would have been unwilling to answer. Some adults may have a better response to this type of attacking question, but this is a 13-year-old boy who may not have had all the experience to learn better responses.

If the boy understood the question to be an opportunity for self-evaluation or introspection, I would expect him to sit and think for a bit before answering. Although, if he really was silent for 3 minutes, he had probably forgotten the question by the end.

If the questioner was hoping for a show of confidence from the boy in his affirming that he had earned the rank, the questioner probably should have guessed from earlier behavior and answers that it was not likely to be answered that way.

If the question was really just 'did you earn the rank', then a simple 'yes' would have been the most likely answer, which would not have served to allay the questioners previous frustrations.

[evmori]

Requiring the Scout wear a uniform at a BOR is adding to the requirements. If he does wear a uniform, it should be worn correctly.

[RWSmith]

Requiring the Scout wear a uniform at a BOR is adding to the requirements. If he does wear a uniform, it should be worn correctly.

BINGO.

Are we a uniformed organization? -- Absolutely. But, is the uniform required? -- Well, it depends.

Is a Scout required to wear the uniform to advancement BOR? -- No. Period. (Are all board members always in proper uniform when sitting on BORs? Just asking.) Certainly, if and when the uniform is worn, you can expect it to be worn correctly -- no doubt about that. But, uniform or not, he is required to be "clean and neat in his appearance".

A Scout is required to wear the uniform in the performance of his POR, i.e., PL, ASPL.

Speaking of PORs, are ALL registered (paid) adults in your unit properly uniformed, i.e., CC, all MCs, SM, all ASMs?

(Cowboy, this is not directed at you or your unit, personally. This is for the discussion, in general.)

If just one of your unit's registered adults does not take the time, money and effort to properly wear the uniform, then how can a Scout be penalized for not doing so? I mean, be it adult or Scout, it should be addressed. But, the PLC handles the youth. And the SM handles the uniform requirement as a matter of a youth's POR during SMCs. If the Scout continues to fail to perform at his POR, the the SM should remove him from that POR 'til he chooses to comply.

All registered, paid adults (paid means, excluding MBCs) are expected to properly wear the uniform and set the example. Does your unit have any adults wearing unauthorized insignia or not wearing required insignia?

[FrankJ]

While I agree that if you need to have the same standards for the adult as the youth, committee member is not an uniformed position. So you cannot really expect committee members to be in uniform.

Our troop does the summer class b uniform thing. Since class b is not an officially recognized term, you will not find policy on it. But is what the boys want.