Questions about "ACTIVITIES" as used for rank adva

[RWSmith]

Sure, commish3, I agree whole-heartedly. What I meant was, for example (not exclusively)... every Scout Camp that has a waterfront iisssss, first and foremost, designed to accomodate the waterfront MBs; and, all those theme park activities are in addition to... bonus material... and a good idea, too.

[don]

scoutchallenge
It sounds like your sons troop does not do many activities to help the scouts with advancements. It sounds like they are using summer camp for the scouts to obtain the first 2 ranks of scouting, is this true?
Does the troop use the meetings and outings to work on scout skills?
I do not know your situation, but would it be possible for your son to attend an out of state camp, with another troop, in the state he in for the summer? Just a suggestion, I know that there is a name for a scout joining another troop for a week at summer camp, but I am drawing a blank right now. Summer Camp can be a growing experince for scouts, hopefully they will get to go to a summer camp.

And I made a mental note not to argue with you either!

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I don't know RWSmith, I'm with Commish on this one. My own son went to camp for two more summers after having all the badges needed for his Eagle and he asked if he could forego taking MB's. But no way was he going to give up summer camp till he was 18, now at 18 he wants to go as an adult leader. He's not the only boy in our troop that feels this way either. We see it all the time. Best time's of their lives they say. Being away from home, bonding with the troop and meeting new scouts from different places, the outdoors, activities, the list goes on and on. One of the camps we attend has even cut down on MB sessions but have opened up all areas for more freetime and they have more campwide activities to participate in. I also try to shy away from presenting the MB earning to new parents and concentrate on all the other benefits from camp. This is the type of experience's that a lot of troops have lost and IMHO have led to a more factory like, push them through the ranks attitude that I think is having a negative effect overall on the scout program.
Anyways, yes, nice thread. I'll bet no one expected this much conversation out of this topic!

[scoutchallenge]

Don - Finally last year, after three years, I got a judge to list one week of scout camp as required. I paid for camp every year and the x never sent the kids. Summer of 2004 they went as provisional campers, 2 weeks to Camp Tiak in Mississippi and had a wonderful time. Last year, Fall of 2003, I changed troops because of the MB at camp issue. Then the new troop did not give the boys credit for the MB's earned in Mississippi.

But as far as Scouting goes - very few leaders are going to get your kids to Eagle. Parent involvement is a requirement for most (not all but most). And we as parents and leaders need to know more about Scouting and the program - we need to support the events planned by our districts and councils and we need to attend training. Troops should encourage participation in these events. These younger kids need to advance to 1st class a 12 to 18 month time frame, and any event should count no matter how small. As leaders we need to understand that we need to catch the attention of the young kids so that the enthusiam carrys them thru to Eagle. Every month the kids need to get something signed off and advance to 1st class.

But I could go on and on....

[Hamish17]

"3. If the Scoutmaster hands out information on a merit badge marathon and only two of fifteen scouts sign up and go along with adult leaders, is that and activity? "
Asked the Scoutmaster of our troop during the first meeting after the Merit Badge Marathon. He stated he meant it to be a troop activity in spite of the fact that only 3 of 15 Scouts ultimately attended. "Our troop policy is, if only one Scout wants to go on an offering we're going."

[riverwalk]

Sure, if an activity is planned and scheduled and people had all the communication.....why wouldn't it be . Some groups we might belong to (me) have a quorum requirement, or the meeting isn't an official meeting. But your few Scout example is not unlike some of my Explorer meetings were. As long as I had my two deep leadership in place, safe meeting place, and observed BSA Policies......it was a meeting/activity thingy.

Every event can't have desired attendance, and a Unit can cancel the thing if they choose too (just for lack of attendance). But I could say that if three Scouts showed, prepared to do the deed, don't shortchange 'em.

[commish3]

One person walking down the middle of the street is not a parade.

One person sitting in a movie theater is not a crowd.

One bird flying alone is not a flock.

One Scout at an activity is not a patrol or a troop.

The Scouting program is very specific on this. A patrol is a small group of boys of similar age or interest under the leadership of an elected leaderfrom the group.

A troop is a gathering of patrols.

One Boy Scout attending an event is just that, one Boy Scout. He is by no stretch of the definition a patrol or a troop. The words we use matter.

[Rick Tyler]

One Boy Scout attending an event is just that, one Boy Scout. He is by no stretch of the definition a patrol or a troop. The words we use matter.

I rarely disagree with Commish on Scouting policy, so I need to walk softly here...

Our previous troop had about 80 boys in it. To provide an interesting program for all the boys the PLC scheduled a lot of activities. We went from about 20 nights of camping and no one-day activities a year to 42 nights of camping and at least a dozen one-day activities. As we expected, the average attendance at each event fell.

We had a 50-mile canoe trek that only attracted four boys. A one-day river float trip only had six. We still considered both of these official troop activities because:

1. They were planned by the PLC.
2. They were on the troop activity calendar.
3. We filed a tour permit for them.

Personally, I believe that if you plan it as a troop activity and only one boy shows up, it's still a troop activity. As far as I know, official BSA literature does not stipulate that an absolute number, or even a percentage, of scouts in the troop need to be present to qualify it as a "troop activity."

[ICanCanoeCanU]

BRAVO!!!!! Well said Rick!
And it was still a scout related event!

[commish3]

Rick,
Do you agree that a troop and a patrol are two different things? If they aren't, then why have the labels at all?

Do you agree that a patrol activity is different then a troop activity? The BSA thinks there is. In fact they have different rules and criteria to define them.

The requirement in question does not ask the scout to participate in a scouting activity , it specifically states troop or patrol activities. Why do you suppose they did that? There is a specific purpose for it.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

You are right and if an activity is open for all troop members, than anyone that goes is participating in a troop activity.

[commish3]

Here is another way to explain it. If there is an NFL game in Chicago with the Bears and the Packers, can any player in the NFL come and participate?

Of course not. You first have to be a member of a specific team, and the team has to be playing. There is no showing up as a single player except for the All-star game (the NFL version of the OA).

(Speaking of OA activities, would they fulfill the requirement we are discussing? No, because OA activities are not troop or patrol activities.)

It seem that over the past 10 years or so that we as unit leaders have forgotten the importance of the patrol as the primary unit of scouting and have instead embraced the 'troop' instead.

That is a huge mistake. A troop is nothing more than a gathering of patrols. Without strong patrols you can never have a strong troop.

Among its many purposes the 'patrol' focus is a powerful tool for attendance and participation. If it's a game day and only one player shows up is the game played? Of course not. Remember as kids if you showed up to the sandlot by yourself then your team forfeited the game and you lost. What did that do, it forced attendance because you learned that if you weren't there the entire team suffered. Your attendance was important to your friends.

Leaders too often allow the patrol method to be dilluted. We merge patrols if only a couple scouts from one patrol is going on the campout. We merge patrols in games to "even out the sides", We re-arrange patrols periodically to "balance" patrols.

I have to laugh when Scout Leaders complain that pro sports aren't as enjoyable because there is no emotional connection to teams any more. Players are traded from team to team, or change through freee agency so often that there is no "team" attachment any more.

Yet those same leaders routinely weaken patrols by doing the same thing.

The requirement says Troop and Patrol activities for a reason. It is to make the scouts work together as teams to help each other succeed. It is a requirement early on in the advancement trail to lay the foundation of the team concept of scouting, it sets a pattern for the scouts next 6 to 7 years in the program.

When we diminish this training from the beginning, that pattern is never allowed to be experienced let alone interanlized by the Scout. If we are not going to establish the importance of scouting being a team activity then do not ever complain about low attendance or poor participation. The scouts are only doing what they have been taught.

[RWSmith]

Commish3,

I appreciate your zeal (and agree, whole-heartedly) that a Boy must belong to a Patrol, which must belong to a Troop. In fact, concerning Boy Scouts, it is second only to "A Scout is Reverent." However, that being said, nothing within that (brilliant) philosophy precludes the Scout's right to be the sole representer of his Patrol on any Patrol- or Troop-sanctioned activity.

Those revered founders, who imagined "a small gang or six or eight boys coming together and competing in groups of three or four, under the reverent, but subtle guidance of adult male [and female, today] role models" (Yes, I'm paraphrasing) is paramount to the success of any Troop. But, again, I would insist, I believe there is room for the occasional excursion of an Army of One (or Two).

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I understand what your saying Commish, but it's a bad comparison -

Here is another way to explain it. If there is an NFL game in Chicago with the Bears and the Packers, can any player in the NFL come and participate?

Of course not. You first have to be a member of a specific team, and the team has to be playing. There is no showing up as a single player except for the All-star game (the NFL version of the OA).

1. The team is Boy Scouts and no specific group was exclusivly invited. ALL scouts from a council and in this case, all scouts from the troop AND all patrols within the troop.
2. Of course NFL players are expected to show up - IT'S THEIR JOB! This however is not.
3. Scouting is more like an individual sport (boy), played as a team (patrol). What if a schools swim team only has 1 person swim a specific event, does that person not get credit because no other team members competed?
4. What if only 2 or 3 boys from a patrol ever show up for any activity and it's the same boys, are you now going to say they don't ever get credit because the other patrol members didn't join too? How many scouts from a patrol need to go for the event to qualify?

What happen to the independance part of the prgram where each boy is respected for their own growth and unique journey through this program?

I do agree with much of your arguement and frankly I think this whole answer can go many ways. Since these are requirements will be met many more times in a boys scouting years after earning this the first time around for rank, I would not to get too fussy with the detail of this example. In other words, if this was a boy who was participating a lot of the time and putting in effort to the program, a motivated youth, and he had met all other requirements needed for this rank, and he had his other 9 solid activites done - I would give him credit for participating in an event open to all but only a few chose to go.

[commish3]

I am not saying that a single scout is not still a scout. I am not saying that if only two scouts showed up we wouldn't still go camping. All I am saying is that one or two scouts does not constitute a patrol or troop. Patrols and troops have specific qualities and elements.

A single bird is still a bird, but it is not a flock.

Since the specific requirement being discussed in this thread is in regards to participation in "troop" or "patrol" activities. Then the troop (more than one patrol) or a patrol, must be in attendance for the activity to count for this specific requirement.

You may not add to or delete from a requirement.

[teepeeayy]

Time to lock this thread. Some of think a small number of scouts constitiutes an event, some don't. You'll never agree, move on.

[commish3]

Terry,
Please note the heading of this page "The Scouting Discussion Network". If we begin locking every thread where there is more than one point of view it will be impossible to hold a discussion.

Everyone who has participated with a point of view on this topic has done so thoughtfully and politely. It would be a shame if your only input in this thread was to ask to shut down it down when you have yet to participate in it. If you have no interest in this particular topic then why not let those that do enjoy a friendly discourse?

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Yes and believe it or not - I for one like to read different views of subjects and have walked away sometimes with a change of feeling sometimes because someone presents a variation on a topic which opens my mind to a different twist.

[RWSmith]

Yes, teepeeayy, I agree. This has been quite thoroughly discussed... quite. And, many have agreed to disagree. (He who walks away lives to debate another day. ) But, as Canoe also noted, let's not lock it down.