Does your troop follow the zero tolerance policy?

[BM_Crawford]

Every troop is suppose to follow a zero tolerance policy which deals with all forms of harrassment down to childish teasing. In my 7-8 years in the scouting program I have noticed that there are unfortunately not alot of troops that follow that policy as strictly as I feel they should, at least that is what I've seen at most summer camp experiences. One year I even had to prevent one troop from attack another over a harrassment issue-now that is an extreme case- but I was wandering if anyone else experienced this problem. I am assuming by the fact that you care enough to post in this board you are all strong supporters of the zero tolerance policy and it is active in each of your troops.

-coments?

[wagionvigil]

Recently at a scouting event a young scout came up to me and asked for a left handed smoke shifter. I informed him there was no such thing and he should go back and tell his SM that. About an hour later the SCoutmaster came to me quire upset that I would ruin the troops fun. I explained to him AGAIN that this was not permitted and he basicially said ##### the rules my troop will do what we want. I inturn notified the council exec and asked him to inform the SM. I guess I will wait until we are out with them again and see if he has learned.

[Guneukitschik]

I would think that most troops would have a zero tolerance policy on the obvious things.... I know most troops have their own policies when it comes to handling discipline problems.

[RWSmith]

I am VERY pleased that Scouters today can enforce the "No Hazing" policy.

However, let's be careful about where we, in Scouting, go with this Zero Tolerance thang. As I understand it, Zero Tolerance is NOT the way to go. In fact, Zero Tolerance is the STUPIDEST, most politically incorrect thing to ever come down publc education pike.

When I was a kid, I at least had the opportunity to defend myself from a bully without fear of reprisal from a teacher. Today, children (my son and daughters included) get suspended for simply raising an arm and leg to ward off a bully.

Zero Tolerance takes all degrees of error (and learning from mistakes) out of everybody's hands.... It's akin to cutting of a kid's hand for stealing a candy bar.

[RWSmith]

....and he basicially said ##### the rules my troop will do what we want. I inturn notified the council exec and asked him to inform the SM. I guess I will wait until we are out with them again and see if he has learned.

BTW, I applaud you for doing that. It doesn't happen often enough. We have to accept that having no SM is better than having one like that.

I'd like to know the outcome of that one.

[scoutmasterbob]

No hazing EVER!

The problem that we have is that a lot of the things troops used to do that used to be fun are now hazing.
The upside down bobcat ceremony, snipe hunt, and the left handed smoke shifter.

Scouts especially scout camp should be a place were a youth can feel safe and not have to be worried about teasing of hazing.

[BM_Crawford]

No hazing EVER!

The problem that we have is that a lot of the things troops used to do that used to be fun are now hazing.
The upside down bobcat ceremony, snipe hunt, and the left handed smoke shifter.

Scouts especially scout camp should be a place were a youth can feel safe and not have to be worried about teasing of hazing.

Thats exactly how I feel. Though I understand what Mr. Smith was saying I dont believe scouts is the place to learn and deal with that.

[wagionvigil]

As an educator I have a problem with zero tolerance. It does not allow for the scout that has an axe and knife in car after a camping weekend and forgets to take it out before going to school. Or the kid that is minding his own business and gets sucker punched in the Cafeteria line because he is a little different. It takes common sense and sometimes people have none!

[BM_Crawford]

Yes thats unfortunately true

[don]

Okay, please tell what zero tolerance is?
If a scout calls another one a name, what do you do then?

If a scout leader holds my son upside down, by his ankles, he is going to jail!

I wish a scout would come up to me and ask for a left handed smoke shifter! I would give him a plate, show him how it works and ask him to have his leader return it to me when he is done with it. Or shoreline or left handed wrench or etc.....

[wagionvigil]

When Our OA Lodge was formed in the early 1920's it was part of Wigwam the " Ordeal" was Fraternity like. The members new the Train schedule on the Tracks close to the Camp they used at that time. They would take the canidate from his bed and tie him to the railroad tracks. During the night they would make train noises and pound on the tracks. Of course they always got them off before the 10 am came through.. That is hazing and thank the good lord we don't subject scouts to that kind of treatment any more. When Dr. Goodman came to our council and Started Wagion Lodge #6 all those old hazing things went away when dealing with the OA.

[BM_Crawford]

Don I think your a bit out of hand. If a scout is name calling another scout that scout is suppose to talk to the leader or a junior leader to talk to the other kid before anything happens. The only time anything happens is when a kid feels uncomfortable and the person continues to do it after reapeated times. Scouts is meant to be fun and harassment is 100% unecusable. It gives you the right to have fun and keep away form unwanted stresses and situations.

[Guneukitschik]

I think you would actually have a hard time proving that the Left-handed smoke-shifter is in fact actual hazing? Is harm being caused? who knows?

I do know that the majority of the troops (mine included) have put the cabosh to all of it years ago...

I think the "fraternity" type stuff can get more serious and is what the issue was aimed at preventing from the beginning however it's now meant to include just about everything!

[RWSmith]

Wow, BM! You really uncovered a live one! Good job!

"Zero Tolerance" can and should be applied to gross negligence, sexual harassment or other abuse. "Zero Tolerance" means, to me... severe, absolute punishment (usually exclusion, suspension or expulsion), without regard to circumstances (more often than not, of both parties). Now, when there is more than two years age difference between the perpetrator and the victim, I can see it being applied to almost any situation.

When it comes to boys near the same age/grade level, as much as I hate to admit it... the process of adolescent males determining pecking orders sometimes involves hazing and bullying. Although neither of these should EVER be tolerated, the fact remains, adolescent boys need to be allowed to experience these issues, to some degree, so they can learn to exercise good judgment. A certain level of this type of adolescent behavior SHOULD be observed by the adults; and, although without overt intervention, the adults should make it clear to the boys that they're "being observed." Afterwards, the adults should always follow up. (Isn't this the real reason we are there?) Hazing or bullying policys must be firm and enforceable. But, it would be wise to counsel two or three boys over such issues prior to applying "Zero Tolerance." Remember, the threat of "Zero Tolerance" to a teenager, is the high degree of risk that BOTH parties will get the hammered equally.

As in NEARLY all things, there a limit. A line, which once crossed, the harm is done. And not a single tear of sorrow can ever erase what is written in the mind of another... once it's said; it's said. Once it's done; it's done. Even though an apology can ease pain, not once has it ever prevented pain.

The problem is not the line itself. The problem is that in any situation invloving two or more human beings... the line moves. And that is the sole reason we gather together. To practice recognizing that line, to practice trying not to cross it, and to practice how to act when we do (including the one getting crossed).

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Odd this subject came up now for me to read. Over the weekend some of the troop was working on an eagle project and the left-handed smoke shifter came up. An older boy mentioned his fond memory of how this trick was pulled on him and how he later pulled it on another scout.

I agree there's a fine line and most times you have to look at the individuals involved. If they're the same age and how serious the incident is. When I've gone to campouts or summer camp, I've had no problem with the scouts. They know my two rules - no vandelism and no abuse, to another person or persons belongings. This is my big thing. I have how ever allowed a few practical jokes which some may question but I think boys (especially the older ones) should be handled a tad different than the younger ones. Keeping 16 & 17 year olds involved and enjoying things requires a different touch than the 11 & 12 year olds. But I remind them to be fair and not do anything that would truely harm someone and to pay attention to the persons feelings so as not to get out of hand. Last year they picked up a boys cot while he was sleeping in it and gently set him down outside his tent. Then they sat around the fire and watched the boy wake up wondering where he was. He was fine with it and they still laugh about it today. Especially when some of these boys are best friends outside the troop.

Another thing is that the boys can be remined of the law, oath and outdoor code - these pretty much cover everything and reminding them that this is the guidlines doesn't hurt. I will ask scouts to remember why they're here, if they no longer want to follow these, it maybe time to rethink if they want to continue with this program. I had to stop a meeting once to have the boys recite these and I asked them all to re-think this. The next few weeks we're much better and I noticed a big change in some of the boys.

[jfmod]

My very first post here, so be gentle, folks.

I can remember many an occasion while I was a scout where I was the subject of the usual pranks and rites of passage, and with only one exception, I remember them fondly.

The only exception was my induction in the OA. Long story short, I was left to spend the night alone in 50 degee weather with only a loincloth and tennis shoes on, and I became very ill.

Snipe hunting? It was a ball, and even funier once I knew the joke (even though it was on me).

Left handed smoke shifter? How is one actually harmed here?

Aside from personal insults, racial slurs, and physically intiidating behavior, do you really believe you can make rules that will prevent normal boyhood behavior? Boys always measure themselves against their friends, and (GASP!) sometimes it isn't in the most diplomatic or mature ways. Isn't that shocking!

In our efforts to make the scouting experience safer and rewarding, I hope we aren't being so politically correct that we forget to let the boys have fun as boys, and not as little robots whose behavior we program completely.

BTW, my son just joined Tigers and I am so proud he is in scouting. It was one of the most beneficial experiences of my youth, along with marching in drum and bugle corps, in teaching me the value of teamwork, perservearance, and personal honor.

But it was also a boatload of fun with reasonable common sense rules.

Cheers.

[BM_Crawford]

I have to agree that some of those are fun but if something is unwanted it should definately end.

[syck03]

My troop follows the zero tolerance policy 100%.

[BM_Crawford]

Good to hear so do we

[evmori]

Left handed smoke shifter hunts, looking for 20 feet of left handed shore line, etc. are done in good fun. The older Scouts who went through these are itching to put the new Scouts through them! There is nothing damaging about them. Now if a Scout doesn't want to participate he doesn't have to.

Zero Tolerance has no place in Scouting. Under Zero Tolerance if a Scout calls another Scout a moron instead of apologizing & getting the talk about about "if ya can't say something nice..." he is gone! Bad policy!

BTW, a snipe is a real bird! Look in the 10th edition of the Boy Scout Handbook.