What is a service project or service hours?

[SN95GT50]

Would you consider any of these service project/service hours?

1) A 1st Class Scout sets up the pinewood derby track for a pack and then the following day assists in the racing by transporting cars from the finish line to the pit area after each run and assists in running the software for the Pack.

2) Scouts help set up a concession stand run by the Troop for a pinewood derby (profits from the concession stand going to the Troop).

3) Scouts work a concession stand run by the Troop during the pinewood derby (profits from the concession stand going to the Troop).

Follow-up, where can I find the rules for Service Projects? All I have found so far is:

"For Star and Life ranks, a Scout must perform 6 hours of service to others. This may be done as an individual project or as a member of a patrol or troop project. Star and Life service projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle service projects. The Scoutmaster approves the project before it is started." Taken from USScouts.org

I have my opinions, but, will hold them till I hear others chime in. I am very interested in hearing everyones input!

Thanks,
John

[Bill Pitcher]

In our troop #1 would be a "yes" but numbers 2 & 3 a "no." We feel that service is to others, not your own unit.

[FrankJ]

The scout master gets the final say on what he accepts as service hours. But he should be consistent, reasonable, & use a generally recognizable definition. Definitely should not be used as a road block or filter. Until you get to eagle, you are not required to 'plan' your service project.

Elements I look for
1) has to be in service to others
2) Scout gets no direct benefit from the service. IE not paid, not required for school or band etc. For example, the school I went required a certain number of service hours to the school as part of the "tuition". I would not count those. If they required service to others, I would count those even though some would view it as double dipping.
3) Not as a fund raiser that would benefit the scout. IE a troop fund raiser.
4) Other than that, it should be as open as possible so it fits in a scouts interests.
5) Cannot really make this a requirement, but with scout spirit, finding enough service hours should not an issue. Especially if you are following 4

So 2 & 3 definitely not. 1, probably unless it was combined with 2 & 3.

[alex gregory]

In our troop we would give Scout credit for #1 only, but even then somewhat reluctantly since the service was given in connection to a BSA Activity. Service for your own unit is not "service to others". If you take a hard line and adopt the same criteria for "service to others" as used for an Eagle service project then #1 also does not qualify. Service hours for Life and Star that involve non-BSA activities should not be all that hard given the wealth of opportunities available in any community.

[Mrw]

Yes, we would count the first one as it is service to the Pack. The other two are fundraisers for the Troop and we would not count them as service hours. The only fundraising we would consider service is that done to support an Eagle project.

[SN95GT50]

little background on number 1. The Scout was part of the Pack last year and since it was a brand new track last year, he assisted in the initial assembly of the track. He is also 1 of 2 people that know how to set up the track. The Scout came in on Friday night (night before the PWD) and assembled the entire track with little assistance he then showed up the next day to help run the races. In my opinion, the only question for his hours would be if it is disallowed due to it being a Cub Scout event and therfore a BSA event.

His work for the Pinewood derby was not in any way associated with the concession stand except theat he purchased a Sprite and a Snickers from the concession stand.

I tend to agree on items 2 & 3 that they do not qualify.

I agree that there are many opportunities for Service Projects in the community and I am proud to say that even without these events most of our Scouts have no problem getting their service hours. Several of our Scouts have well in excess of 100 hours/year.

Thanks for everyones input,
John

[Nuts4Scouts]

You will not find a definition of what does, or does not, constitute a service project in any BSA literature. The closest you will come is the rules for an Eagle Leadership Service Project. However that is completely different from the service project hours required for Star and Life.

For the ranks of Star and Life the only "rules" are the requirement itself (which can not be changed).

The requirement for both Star and Life, according to the BSA Boy Scout Requirements book, 2010 -

"take part in service projects totaling at least six hours of work. These projects must be approved by your Scoutmaster"

There is nothing stating the hours of service must not be for BSA. There is also nothing stating the service must be for "others". The definition of "service" is - "an act of helpful activity"; "friendly help". The projects can be service to benefit the Troop.

The bottom line is the projects used for these service hours must be approved by the Scoutmaster. Therefore it is totally the Scoutmaster's call.

[Fred Johnson]

I agree this is the scoutmaster's call. I'd hope he/she generally decides "grey areas" in favor of the scout. We're there to support the scout right?

In our troop, entries 1, 2 and 3 would qualify.

As long as it was for others and not required service. Others can be the troop, a BSA camp or generally anyone.

I can guarantee you that if you deny service credit for example clearing a stream at a BSA scout camp or supporting a troop fundraiser (money to troop, not scout) .... the next time he is asked to help he won't remember the pride and satisfaction in helping. .... He'll remember being denied credit. .... That's when scouts start just not signing up to help. .... Or just don't show up.

The important point is fostering pride and satisfaction in doing things for others. Lifting up the scout at every opportunity.

[smtroop168]

Here's my thoughts on Star/Life Service "projects":

This requirement is designed to have scouts think about "others". So if they come up with something that fits that thought, then okay go for it. I would say in this example as long as he is not a Den Chief, he could use 1, 2, or 3. Remember though the SP must be approved BEFORE its done so I would probably steer him away from 2 or 3.

This requirement is also quasi-designed to have scouts think about what might be involved when it's their EP time (you can say the same thing about the Cit in Comm req for 8 hours of service to a single organization). This is why credit can be given for assisting on Eagle Projects since they are all done for the community and other than the BSA or a fundraiser.

[RWSmith]

As noted previously, it is ultimately the SM's call. However, some things for him/her to consider:

Second Class Rank
For the Second Class rank, a Scout must participate in a service project or projects approved by his Scoutmaster. The time of service must be a minimum of one hour. This project prepares a Scout for the more involved service projects he must perform for the Star, Life, and Eagle Scout ranks.

Star and Life Ranks
For Star and Life ranks, a Scout must perform six hours of service to others. This may be done as an individual project or as a member of a patrol or troop project. Star and Life service projects may be approved for Scouts assisting on Eagle service projects. The Scoutmaster approves the project before it is started.

Service hours for 2C/Star/Life can ALWAYS benefit Scouting (e.g., BSA events or facilities, such as Camporees or Scout camps)... UNLESS, of course, while working on an ESLSP.

Eagle Scout Rank (In part...)
Eagle Scout projects should be about service to others.[1]

Guidelines to follow include:

An Eagle Scout project involving council property or other BSA activities is not acceptable.[2]
An Eagle Scout project may not be performed for a business.[1]
An Eagle Scout project may not be of a commercial nature.[1]
An Eagle Scout project may not be a fund-raiser.[3]
Fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials needed to carry out the project.[3]
Donors to Eagle Scout projects must be made aware of what entity is benefiting from the project, and that it clearly is not the Boy Scouts of America.[3]
Any funds raised for an Eagle Scout project that are not used for the purchase of project materials must be returned to the donor.[3]

NOTES (relative to 2C/Star/Life):

[1] While this DOES NOT "explicitly" apply to 2C, it has "traditionally" been applied to all service hours; the SM might be wise to consider this when determining appropriateness for all service hours.
[2] This DOES NOT and SHOULD NOT EVER be applied to 2C/Star/Life (unless, as noted above, while working on an ESLSP).
[3] This is where things get a bit mushy. IMO, a fund raiser that benefits one's own Troop does NOT, in any case, qualify as service hours; it's a just another Troop fund raiser... because it's not of service to others. E.g., Selling popcorn should never be considered as service hours. ("Service to others" in Scouting is "someone other than your unit".) OTOH, if it's a fund raiser for the CO, or to buy a wheelchair for the disabled veteran's spouse down the street, well, IMO, that is just fine for 2C/Star/Life service hours because it's specifically of service to others. Once more, just for the record... that's my opinion.

[Fred Johnson]

Examples as interpreted in the past by our troop.

• Popcorn sales where the scout gets some of the funds - Agreed. Not a qualifying service project. Scout personally benefits.
  
• Den chief - Agreed. Not a qualifying service project. Scout personally benefits by earning POR credit for advancement. Also, this is expected service as part of his position of responsibility.
  
• Troop fundraiser to help general fund expenses or buy a trailer or ... - Our troop would count this The scout stepped forward beyond serving his own interests. A key point is that our troop encourages but doesn't require participation in things like this.
  
• Helping charter org with spring cleaning - Our troop would count this. It is saying thank you to the CO and that is the heart of what service is about.

Tangent #1 - REQUIRED SERVICE TO OTHERS - I've seen troops that require the scout to do a specific number of hours of service to their charter org per year and then give the scout credit for those service hours toward advancement. In my opinion, "required service to others" is a contradiction. I don't like the message it communicates. Any service that is "REQUIRED" is automatically disqualified as service for advancement. Essentially, the scout is personally benefiting by fulfilling a troop membership requirement. Also, the scout is hearing the message "DO X AND GET Y". We should be encouraging service because helping others is an important part of character. Not because you need to do it for advancement. And, that's how it should be approached in the SMC. That's just my opinion though.

Tangent #2 - BEFORE - The only part that I'm uncomfortable with what our troop does but I do not want to change is "BEFORE". We have just never enforced: "The Scoutmaster approves the project before it is started." If a scout at a SMC says he spent three hours Saturday at a homeless shelter serving food, we would count it. And, the SMC would say: "Wow. What a great thing to do. Tell me about it. " I just don't know how to merge this with "before it is started". Except Eagle, there is no planning or reporting requirements. Also, I don't want to turn our troop advancement into a Dilbert cartoon.

[VenturingL]

I asked similar question when new Journey to Excellence criteria came out - one item is # of service projects done by the crew. I asked if we could count Venturers staffing Cub Fun Day or Cub Scout Twilight Camp as a crew service project. Some in room said yes, others said no since was for BSA. Still waiting on definitive answer - will post if I get one. Individual crew members have used taking the lead on organizing crew, coordinating with event chairperson, etc. for individual "leading crew in a major event" toward Gold Award.

[RWSmith]

I asked similar question when new Journey to Excellence criteria came out - one item is # of service projects done by the crew. I asked if we could count Venturers staffing Cub Fun Day or Cub Scout Twilight Camp as a crew service project. Some in room said yes, others said no since was for BSA.

Those who said "No" are plain, flat-out WRONG.

For an outstanding reference, see: Journey To Excellence: Unit Tips for Success. This webpage covers all the bases regarding service projects and recording service hours... and I mean everything.

[smtroop168]

I asked similar question when new Journey to Excellence criteria came out - one item is # of service projects done by the crew. I asked if we could count Venturers staffing Cub Fun Day or Cub Scout Twilight Camp as a crew service project. Some in room said yes, others said no since was for BSA.

Those who said "No" are plain, flat-out WRONG.

For an outstanding reference, see: Journey To Excellence: Unit Tips for Success. This webpage covers all the bases regarding service projects and recording service hours... and I mean everything.

Thanks...this hits one of my real pet peeves with Councils and Districts. This is on the National website but as in other useful info, the council gives you the deer in the headlight looks and has not sent this out to all our units. Had we not had RW pull this off and educate us, it is highly unlikely I would have seen this through "official" channels.

Did anyone see that the 12 steps and Active Definition has been pulled out of the 2011 BSA requirements book?

It's like the cell phone commercial with the Tacos Party , "do you think that is information that I would like to know"

[SN95GT50]

I would like to thank all who responded, the discussion has been enlightening to say the least. My personnal opinion is that 1 should count and 2 & 3 probably should not. I walk a fine line here, because, my son is the one setting up the track.

In the end, I consider 1 to count and 2 & 3 to be in the gray area. Personnally, I would encourage all Scout to persue Service Projects that are not in the gray for their hours and do those in the gray area because it is the right thing to do.

I really enjoyed this dialog, but, wish this was defined better by the BSA.

Thanks,
John

[smtroop168]

I would like to thank all who responded, the discussion has been enlightening to say the least. My personnal opinion is that 1 should count and 2 & 3 probably should not. I walk a fine line here, because, my son is the one setting up the track.

In the end, I consider 1 to count and 2 & 3 to be in the gray area. Personnally, I would encourage all Scout to persue Service Projects that are not in the gray for their hours and do those in the gray area because it is the right thing to do.

I really enjoyed this dialog, but, wish this was defined better by the BSA.

Thanks,
John

Another approach you can take is to ask the scout if after reading the requirement, does he think he should get it signed off.

[Nuts4Scouts]

My personnal opinion is that 1 should count and 2 & 3 probably should not. I walk a fine line here, because, my son is the one setting up the track.

No, as an ASM, and not the SM, you actually don't walk any line at all.

Your son needs to get approval from his SM (not you), on what the SM will count as service hours.

If your son disagrees with the hours that were signed off, it is up to your son (not you) to talk to his SM about it.

[RWSmith]

No, as an ASM, and not the SM, you actually don't walk any line at all.

Ah-hem. Then why do we have ASMs at all? Maybe we should just call them "PIUs" (parents-in-uniform), or something.

Your son needs to get approval from his SM (not you), on what the SM will count as service hours.

What if the SM has delegated his/her authority to a particular ASM regarding service hours?

If your son disagrees with the hours that were signed off, it is up to your son (not you) to talk to his SM about it.

Again, what if the SM has delegated his/her authority to ASM SN95GT50, in particular, regarding service hours?

Huh? Huh? Huh?

[Fred Johnson]

Did anyone see that the 12 steps and Active Definition has been pulled out of the 2011 BSA requirements book?

Thanks. I didn't notice that!

I've been using the ACPP both the last replaced version and the newest version that was pulled from the shelves. I've been waiting for the updated version ... and still waiting.

Another approach you can take is to ask the scout if after reading the requirement, does he think he should get it signed off.

I really like this approach! Make the scout think and decide using his conscious.

[Nuts4Scouts]

No, as an ASM, and not the SM, you actually don't walk any line at all.

Ah-hem. Then why do we have ASMs at all? Maybe we should just call them "PIUs" (parents-in-uniform), or something.

Your son needs to get approval from his SM (not you), on what the SM will count as service hours.

What if the SM has delegated his/her authority to a particular ASM regarding service hours?

If your son disagrees with the hours that were signed off, it is up to your son (not you) to talk to his SM about it.

Again, what if the SM has delegated his/her authority to ASM SN95GT50, in particular, regarding service hours?

Huh? Huh? Huh?

It does not matter what their title is, if the ASM father (or PIU) has been delegated to sign off on service hours by the SM, my answer would be the same.

If the particular type of service hours are in any way iffy, and the Scout involved is your son, run it past the SM for verification. It is still the SM's call. Asking the SM for input will "broaden the line" that the ASM dad is walking, and removes any appearance of favoritism.

If the son, or any other Scout, is unhappy with the number of hours approved, as they have already discussed the issue at the time with the person signing off on the hours, the Scout should still go to the SM for any further discussion.