Who holds the blue cards?

[Jean9]

Hi all,
When a scout gets the blue cards, who is supposed to hang on to them;the scout or the MBC? I am MBC for all the Citizenship badges and I hold the cards. I have had too many lost and don't think it makes sense to have the kid start over because the stuff he did before would predate the new card. Our troop thinks it should be the kids and some MBC do have the kids hold the cards, some don't. I guess that my issue with the kids having the cards is that scouts is one of the few organizations that will take boys with learning disabilities and ADHD. These kids put the cards in their scout book cover (which has no zipper) and then go camping where they fall out of the book as the kid carts it around to get signed off (because they will probably forget to get stuff signed off during the next meeting). I just know that many adults have trouble keeping track of small pieces of important paper (just ask any accountant at tax time) and I hate seeing kids get discouraged because they lose the blue card and have to start over.
I am beginning to hate blue cards and am glad that my younger son doesn't really want to be an Eagle. I don't want to go through the nitpicking, bureaucratic, junk that I have had to with my older son. The older one is only 1 badge and the project from Eagle and it will not be one second too soon for me. He has been working on the last 3 badges since 09, but misplaced 2 of the blue cards. The MBC thought he was okay to work on them, we thought he was okay to work on them, but our AC didn't have 2 of those badges in Troopmaster so he was going to make him start over so the dates didn't predate the issue date on the blue card. We thankfully found one of them, but it looks like we are going to have to start the other one (family life) over, even though we have emails from the counselor dating back to 2010 giving him permission to do a project for the family.
Remind me again how Boy Scouts is supposed to be fun for the kids and the family.
Sorry for the venting, just very frustrated right now.

[agdparker]

There are 3 parts to the MB card: one for the counselor, one for the applicant (scout) and one to be turned in with the advancement report. In my troop, the AC likes to keep the applicant section in addition to the one they would normally get, the advancement report copy. They do this because the boys were losing them.

For my own sons, I have created scout binders that have baseball card plastic sheets in them (in addition to other materials). When my boys earn a MB, they put their copy in the plastic sheet. When they are presented with the MB's and get the MB award card, they put the award card in with the MB blue card. My AC is fine with this arrangement as she knows the binders only go with the boys when they are needed.

On the issue of your AC making the boys start over, others will chime in, but I disagree with he/she saying the boys must start over. If the MB counselor feels they have fulfilled the requirements, is a currently-registered MB counselor, then there's not much the AC can say, in my opinion.

[smtroop168]

The Scout should hold his Blue Card although there is no fast rule for this. The reason is that the scout may start a MB with one MBC but could finish it with a different one. What I recommend to the MBC is create yourself a record (I use an excel spreadsheet) for what's been done and then if the card is lost, you have fill out a new one with the completed stuff.

BCs get washed, ripped, eaten by the dog (Yep! - he ate the Merit badges too but those came back up the next day ) and lost all the time. It's a lesson learned when the scout doesn't keep his stuff together. I've had books lost too. Teaching personal accountability is a part of the process.

You can modify your approach with scouts that need help like the ones you mention.

Isn't yours the AC who was signing BCs?

If the MBC has email records of the work your son has done for FL, then he can resurrect the BC and move on.

It's too bad your younger son doesn't want to be an Eagle. If BC management is the reason, that's pretty sad. Your influence here to encourage him is key. Hopefully he will still get Character, Values and Ethics from the program.

Just one more thing..what is your solution to keeping track of the MBs if there was no BC or similar record the scouting program uses.

[Mrw]

It sounds like your AC is on a real power trip.

As our troop's AC, I am not about to try to track when each kid takes out each blue card and where they are with the completion of the badge. I know when a boy wants to get a blue card as I keep the MBC list. When he wants a card, he sees me for a counselor name and then the SM to get the front of the card signed. It is up to the MBC whether activities done before this are counted for the badge.

As for who holds a partial card, generally our boys do, but the counselors generally have a record of what the boy previously did in case it gets lost or becomes blue pocket mulch in the wash.

[Jean9]

Thanks so much for the replies. I think the issue is that our AC has the gatekeeper syndrome that I read about on another thread. He doesn't want to share information so everything goes through him. Don't get me wrong, he is a great guy, he just doesn't want to share information.
If it were up to me I would let the MBC's have access to Troopmaster and be able to update the MBs online. I was the AC for our pack and the den leaders had access to only their dens and they updated advancement, then I did the shopping and reporting when it was time for the pack meeting.
As far as my younger son is concerned, he has severe learning issues, autistic tendencies and ADHD. He likes to camp and having fun at the meetings. Paperwork is very hard for him so he is still a scout after a year when the kids that crossed over with him are getting second class. We ended up taking him out till next September because he couldn't deal with the meetings. They became a lot of sitting around and talking which he doesn't do well. He said we were forcing him to scouts and was complaining. We took him out hoping that it will cause him to appreciate it and want to go back. Right now he is looking forward to going back but we will see what happens in the fall. There is no way that he could handle the paperwork involved in becoming an Eagle and I am not going to push him. I just want him to enjoy scouts and get the great character lessons that BSA has to offer and I think he will get that.

[FrankJ]

As a MBC I would never make a scout start over because he lost the blue card. It is not really anybodies decision but the councilors. You review the work with the scout & if he has done it you sign it as complete.

[Mrw]

Our boys see too many counselors outside the troop for us to give MBCs access to Troopmaster in any meaningful way.

We give read-only access to most of the adult troop leaders and full access to the SM, AC, Secretary and the guy who does the tour plans and camp reservations.

[kwildman]

Doesnt teaching the boys responsibility come into play here somewhere? The scout should hang on to his cards. If he loses them then hopefully the MBC can remember or has tracked their progress. If not then the scout should be prepared to accept redoing things. It shouldn't take that long if he has already completed them.

[smtroop168]

Doesnt teaching the boys responsibility come into play here somewhere? The scout should hang on to his cards. If he loses them then hopefully the MBC can remember or has tracked their progress. If not then the scout should be prepared to accept redoing things. It shouldn't take that long if he has already completed them.

Ever hear of helicopter parents and everyone gets a trophy?

If it were up to me I would let the MBC's have access to Troopmaster and be able to update the MBs online. I was the AC for our pack and the den leaders had access to only their dens and they updated advancement, then I did the shopping and reporting when it was time for the pack meeting.

Problematic too many folks updating the database and if some forgets to back up the files, you can have madness.

As far as my younger son is concerned, he has severe learning issues, autistic tendencies and ADHD. He likes to camp and having fun at the meetings. Paperwork is very hard for him so he is still a scout after a year when the kids that crossed over with him are getting second class. We ended up taking him out till next September because he couldn't deal with the meetings. They became a lot of sitting around and talking which he doesn't do well. He said we were forcing him to scouts and was complaining. We took him out hoping that it will cause him to appreciate it and want to go back. Right now he is looking forward to going back but we will see what happens in the fall. There is no way that he could handle the paperwork involved in becoming an Eagle and I am not going to push him. I just want him to enjoy scouts and get the great character lessons that BSA has to offer and I think he will get that.

The "Paul Harvey" story is much more informational than what I thought was the reason which seemed to be "I hate BCs so my younger son is outta here." Best of luck to him as he deals with his problems.

[Fred Johnson]

In our troop....

The advancement chair is a paperwork / infrastructure / committee position that helps the SM and ASMs succeed. Very little interaction with the scouts other than to fix data so troop records are accurate and COHs don't miss anything. Essentially the SM hands the AC completed MB cards to record. AC then purchases and submits advancement records. That's it.

We don't record when merit badges are started. It's really not useful information to the troop. We only record when a MB is completed. Everything in-work is between the scout and his counselor.

I cringe when I hear talk of scouts having to re-start merit badges. That's more about finding reasons to hold the scout back then to help them succeed. MBs are earned by completing MB requirements, not by completing a blue card or a worksheet. The rest is paperwork that can be resolved / fixed / re-created to help the scout succeed.

Example: Camping MB. Did you have 20 days and nights? Yes. When were they? ... Okay. Bluecard? Lost. We can fix that. Previously completed requirements are still complete.

[kwildman]

Ever hear of helicopter parents and everyone gets a trophy?

If you have helicopter parents it is your own fault. Give them a job, find something for them to do. Get them away from their kids. I have seen enough of the momscouts/dadscouts to make me ill. The everyone gets a trophy crowd is ruining our kids as well...if they dont do the work they dont get the badge.

[smtroop168]

Ever hear of helicopter parents and everyone gets a trophy?

If you have helicopter parents it is your own fault. Give them a job, find something for them to do. Get them away from their kids. I have seen enough of the momscouts/dadscouts to make me ill. The everyone gets a trophy crowd is ruining our kids as well...if they dont do the work they dont get the badge.

This is getting off the topic of holding BCs but I'm not sure how its the SM's fault. Helicopter parents are just not that way in scouting and I can't "fix" them in an hour a week. Their approach spills over to school - What do you mean my son got a C? To sports - why isn't my son starting on the team?

We gave one HP a job and it turned into a nightmare...her sons advancement records were "exaggerated" and others were not kept accurate. The three boys never were allowed to go on any troop activity without Dad who brought their own separate stash of snacks and at SC collected their laundry every morning. How these guys are going to function on their own is a mystery to me.

[kwildman]

Probably need to split this thread as I am sure everyone has struggled with these issues and HC parents do make the advancement program including blue cards a mess. The hour a week is for each kid in the troop - parents are a much higher multiplier. I have no problem having a SM conference with the parents and setting them straight on expectations for the kids and the adults. The support of assistant SM and strong Troop Committee helps with this.

[lambeausam]

The first troop my son was in, blue cards were always in the scout's possession until signed and completed. The boys' current troop is the same with a few exceptions. Partials from summer camp or clinics are retained by the SM. When the scout is ready to finish the badge with a counselor, they pick it up from the SM.

[WeeWillie]

For generations Scouts have mananged their own Blue Cards. Some of us remember T-1 Yellow Rank Advanacement Cards cards too! For generations Scout have lost their cards! For generations SMs have rolled their eyes and reissued cards. Most of the information can be retrieved from troop records and going back to the original signer.

Long ago my SM told me to mount all my cards in a binder or baseball card holder. He also told me to put my rank card in a plastic bag and keep it in my left shirt pocket. He also told me to make a merit badge binder for written requirements. In other words he taught me to "Be Prepared". Those are lessons that I learned over 40 years ago and have used ever since. When we ask Scouts to hand over their cards we are denying them a life long lesson. That is a pretty steep price for convenience.

We have special needs Scouts that often require special methods. That is a situation that can be worked out between the parents and SM.

Now for full disclosure! I did not put my 2nd Class Rank Card in a plastic bag and it rained, and rained, and rained. My card got very wet and my SM gave me a stern lecture on following instructions an reissued me a new card. I still have that card in a binder along with all my other cards.

[FrankJ]

You have scouts that are finding their way to being men. The SM is hopefully guiding them in the right direction. The mark of a good scout master is knowing when to be firm & when to cut them some slack. Unfortunately that wisdom will not come out of a book. Hat off to all of you out there trying to do the right thing.

[Jean9]

Thanks again for all your help with this issue. I agree that the scout needs to take responsibility and that they should be able to keep track of the blue cards. I guess my problem was how our troop handles it if they don't... having to start over from scratch. That to me is counterproductive and demoralizing. Do I think that the kid should get off scott free? No, but they shouldn't lose credit for things they have already done and may or may not be able to do again. For example, if a boy goes on a trip to DC with his class, visits national monuments down there, comes back and discusses it with the CITN counselor, fulfills that requirement and then loses the card a few weeks later, he then has to go to another monument which may or may not be doable. That to me is crazy! If an Eagle candidate loses a blue card for a badge that has a long time requirement (Personal Management, Family Life, Personal Fitness) which he has already fufilled, and doesn't have the time to start over before he turns 18 does he lose the ability to become and Eagle even if it was lost through no fault of his own (read little sibling or Dog)? I just don't think that is realistic and puts way too much worth on a small piece of paper. It is nice to hear that most troops rebuild the card as opposed to start over. It sounds like this is a problem in our troop and not all across BSA.
BTW, we did finally find all of our lost blue cards. They were dated back before you could print them out and our AS hadn't put them in troopmaster. They were in a folder (with the worksheets) which got misplaced (read shoved way under a bed) when my younger son went looking for something in the room he shares with his older brother. I am thankful that we don't have to start over, but feel sorry for anyone who might be in a situation like that and can't find them.
Thanks again for all your help and wise words.

[smtroop168]

It sounds like this is a problem in our troop and not all across BSA.

It's a problem in other units I'm sure but most units are for the boys and not their own egos.

[cballman]

I as a MBC for a few merit badges. What I do is my wife who can whip out an excel spreadsheet for any merit badge that I or anyone else needs keep the records. So then if a child who has lost a blue card then comes to me with a replacement and we go over how he can keep track and what he can do to help him in the future. I hate to explain to parents that I am trying to help the child not hinder him. Now I will work myself to death to help a child but I also expect the parents to be a little understanding and not be mean and demanding. I have also had young men who are working on a merit badge that asked me to keep the card so they wouldnt lose it. I am a softy because I will. But I will not force a young man to finish a badge that I am a MBC on. I believe that we need to teach responsability to the young men AND the parents. I have earned the badges when I was a young man also. So I think I know what I am talking about. Yes I am an Eagle Scout, I am also a parent of an Eagle Scout. I have done it, parented it, and now I am still teaching it. What is it? The Scout Oath and Law. Read these and then hopefully everyone will not be complety upset with my answer.

[kwildman]

Jean9 - I dont think anyone was advocating to start from scratch. if a scout loses his blue card then he should still be able to show the work done to get it signed off. The long term requirements require charting or logging in a ledger. These can be easily shown to the councilor and then signed off again without having to repeat the requirements. If it is a scout that i was previously working with i would have a good idea what was already completed. If a scout that started with another councilor came to me and said he lost his blue card then he would need to demonstrate to me that he already completed requirements.

"I lost my home work" wont cut it in school and i don't think it should not be acceptable in scouts either.